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Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by boomboomsubban on Sunday December 09, 2018 @10:46AM (#18641348)
In July of 1945, Szilard and a number of other scientists involved with the Manhattan Project, signed a petition asking that Japan be publicly informed of the terms of surrender and refused then before the bomb was dropped. Not only was that simple request ignored, the US Government tried to blacklist the scientists who signed that petition. Arguing that the bombs were necessary to prevent an invasion pretends that any other option was tried.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szil%C3%A1rd_petition

Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by gedy on Sunday December 09, 2018 @10:57AM (#18641415)
I feel like this splits hairs a bit, as the Potsdam Declaration[1] already had warned of utter destruction unless Japan surrendered. Our firebomb raids had already demonstrated this resolve and killed more civilians than the atomic bombs, in likely more horrific ways.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Declaration

Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by Nomentatus on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:11AM (#18641506)
This is to one side of the point - many historians hold that the U.S. was keen to demonstrate the power of these bombs in order to cow the U.S.S.R., (and prove they were practical) even if it meant delaying the end of the war.

Firebombing was even more effective (but not economical) in killing Japanese civilians, as you note. However, firebombing would not have been as effective vs the Soviets (far less flimsy, compact wood construction) nor have the same effect vs ground forces: making a live demonstration of atomic bombs still useful intimidation, according to this view.

Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by iguy on Sunday December 09, 2018 @03:50PM (#18643168)
Besides cowing the USSR, I think that a valid war aim was fully cowing Japan.

One of the lessons of WWI was that military victory wasn't enough, too many Germans could tell themselves afterwards that they were stabbed in the back, etc. If the goal was to defeat Japanese fascism, then it was important that no Japanese could believe such things afterwards. And for this, a shocking weapon (one plane, one city) was effective in a way that (say) a starvation blockade would not have been.

Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by boomboomsubban on Sunday December 09, 2018 @12:06PM (#18641869)
One of the goals of the Potsdam Deceleration was to be intentionally vague about the terms of surrender, and the terms were never formally rejected. It doesn't fit the guidelines of the petition, and barely counts as an attempt at peace without bombing or invasion.
Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by jessriedel on Sunday December 09, 2018 @01:58PM (#18642547)
> One of the goals of the Potsdam Deceleration was to be intentionally vague about the terms of surrender

Do you have a cite that the ambiguity was intended to reduce the chance the Japanese would surrender? I don't know the history well.

I have the impression that, given the US's knowledge of its own military superiority, it would never have accepted anything besides total surrender and occupation. (This is not just vindictive; cease fires and truces are less effective for ensuring the enemy doesn't rise later.) Therefore, if the declaration was vague, this if anything would have been to encourage getting the Japanese to the bargaining table.

Wikipedia seems consistent with this:

> A major aspect relating to the Potsdam Declaration was that it was intended to be ambiguous. It is not clear from the document itself whether a Japanese government was to remain under Allied occupation or whether the occupation would be run by a foreign military government. In the same manner, it was not clear whether after the end of the occupation Japan was to include any territory other than the four main Japanese islands...This ambiguity was intentional on the part of the U.S. government in order to allow the Allies a free hand in running the affairs of Japan afterwards.

One can certainly criticize the US for not accepting conditional/partial surrender as a way to avoid unnecessary deaths, but the ambiguity of the declaration doesn't seem like the issue.

Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by boomboomsubban on Monday December 10, 2018 @02:16AM (#18645879)
>Do you have a cite that the ambiguity was intended to reduce the chance the Japanese would surrender? I don't know the history well.

If fairly clearly shows that they were not listening to the requests made in the Szilard petition, which is what I am claiming. They did not publicly offer the terms of surrender or wait for a refusal.

Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by jessriedel on Monday December 10, 2018 @09:48AM (#18648237)
Oh, OK, sure. It sounds like the Szilard petition wanted to incentivize Japan to surrender by conceding to them some post-war self-determination. The US would not accept this -- which, I as I said, might have been immoral -- so, to me, the ambiguity of the surrender terms in the Potsdam Declaration is not really surprising or damning. If we can trust Wikipedia, Japan declined surrender even after the first bomb on Hiroshima in the hopes of striking better terms with the USSR.

For others, here are the relevant excerpts from the Szilard petition, which is quite short and worth reading in full:

> We feel, however, that such attacks on Japan could not be justified, at least not unless the terms which will be imposed after the war on Japan were made public in detail and Japan were given an opportunity to surrender....If such public announcement gave assurance to the Japanese that they could look forward to a life devoted to peaceful pursuits in their homeland and if Japan still refused to surrender our nation might then, in certain circumstances, find itself forced to resort to the use of atomic bombs....we, the undersigned, respectfully petition: first, that you exercise your power as Commander-in-Chief, to rule that the United States shall not resort to the use of atomic bombs in this war unless the terms which will be imposed upon Japan have been made public in detail and Japan knowing these terms has refused to surrender; ...

http://www.dannen.com/decision/45-07-17.html

Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by boomboomsubban on Monday December 10, 2018 @02:34PM (#18650536)
>It sounds like the Szilard petition wanted to incentivize Japan to surrender by conceding to them some post-war self-determination.

This is not the case, the petition was to prevent the US from dropping a bomb unless Japan had been given the terms of surrender and refused them. This did not happen, and thus the situation can't be boiled down to "nuke or invasion" as there was a third option was not tried. I'm not making any further arguments, my positions on them are extreme and I don't want to try to convince others of them.

Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by thatoneuser on Sunday December 09, 2018 @04:07PM (#18643286)
I mean it was war. Like it or not you don’t go into war negotiations with a limp hand - it’s a weak negotiating point. So I don’t think the US needed to make a hat in hand offer for it to be considered valid.
Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by hirundo on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:28AM (#18641616)
In accounting for the costs of counterfactuals I think the question is less what is possible and more what is likely. The outsized response you describe to the simple request is evidence of the strong political will for more aggressive options.
Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by boomboomsubban on Sunday December 09, 2018 @12:11PM (#18641923)
I suspect that US military leaders would be much more hesitant to spend the lives of untold thousands of US soldiers, and a prolonged firebombing campaign would have been the most likely non-nuclear continuation. Whether that would have saved lives or cost more is impossible to guess
Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by Tsubasachan on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:08AM (#18646984)
People make the mistake that the Japanese government actually CARED about the suffering of its people. Japanese cities were already being bombed daily and Japan was starving. The war had been lost for years.
Re:The price of the Manhattan Project (2013) by rjsw on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:28AM (#18641620)
John McCloy proposed explicitly including a description of the bomb in surrender terms too.