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Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by notacoward on Sunday December 09, 2018 @08:02AM (#18640668)
Interesting point buried in here: since Android is open source, you could go in and fix the bug, but then because you're not running an official Android version you'd lose access to the Play Store and other services. Something's not really free if there's a penalty for doing it. Since freedom to run a modified version of software yourself is one of the four freedoms of free software, this highlights the difference between free software and open source.

I'm not saying open source is bad and everyone should prefer free software. It's just a good example of the difference between the two in practice rather than in some debate about licenses and the abstract principles behind them.

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by ikeboy on Sunday December 09, 2018 @08:22AM (#18640736)
You can run the play store just fine on lineageos, which has modifications and isn't official.

https://www.google.com/android/uncertified/ just need to register here as of earlier this year apparently

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by notacoward on Sunday December 09, 2018 @08:27AM (#18640751)
Apparently Play Store is unaffected, but some other apps - banking, streaming, even Pokemon Go - will break. And your warranty (including hardware) is voided. So I stand corrected, and thank you, but I don't think the correction affects the main point.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by ikeboy on Sunday December 09, 2018 @08:34AM (#18640775)
Those apps are making a conscious decision to exclude phones/roms not certified by Google. That's their choice.

Generally hardware warranty will remain if it's purely a hardware issue - you can always flash back anyway.

Android is free software in the sense that you can make and distribute modified versions. If app vendors choose to discriminate against those versions that doesn't make it unfree any more than software supporting windows and not Linux makes Linux unfree

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by notacoward on Sunday December 09, 2018 @08:46AM (#18640822)
> Android is free software in the sense that you can make and distribute modified versions.

I don't think that's enough to make it free software, and "free software in the sense..." is nonsensical. Free software would guarantee the continuance of that freedom. Since that guarantee doesn't exist, Google could place limitations on the Play Store at any time. The fact that they haven't makes the example less clear, but it doesn't make Android free software. Even Google doesn't claim that it is.

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by ikeboy on Sunday December 09, 2018 @08:48AM (#18640828)
Play store isn't part of Android. Even if it was only available to specific phones, that wouldn't make Android unfree.

Play store isn't open source at all.

Amazon was able to take Android and put it on their extremely popular devices with 0 support from Google, no play store. That's what I call freedom

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by SSLy on Sunday December 09, 2018 @03:57PM (#18643215)
Play store isn't part of AOSP.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by zamazingo on Sunday December 09, 2018 @03:27PM (#18643070)
> Play store isn't part of Android.

It is extremely well integrated into it, by design.

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by dahart on Sunday December 09, 2018 @10:28AM (#18641244)
> Those apps are making a conscious decision to exclude phones/roms not certified by Google. That's their choice.

Isn’t the entire point of Google’s certification process to encourage app vendors to make that choice?

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by ikeboy on Sunday December 09, 2018 @10:32AM (#18641271)
No, only for apps that value certified behavior over accessibility. Typically this is payments (high liability for fraud, higher fraud rates from non-certified users), DRM, and multiplayer gaming (prevent cheating).
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by mikeash on Sunday December 09, 2018 @10:01AM (#18641111)
It’s not legal to void your warranty because you changed some software, unless the software change actually caused the problem you’re trying to get fixed under warranty.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by dctoedt on Sunday December 09, 2018 @12:09PM (#18641904)
> It’s not legal to void your warranty because you changed some software, unless the software change actually caused the problem you’re trying to get fixed under warranty.

Citation, please?

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by timewasted on Sunday December 09, 2018 @12:24PM (#18642003)
I’m assuming the poster is referring to the Magnuson-Moss Warrany Act: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by ascii_only on Sunday December 09, 2018 @10:44AM (#18641339)
They work. You just need to install additional software. Magisk + safetynet fix.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by oDot on Sunday December 09, 2018 @08:44AM (#18640814)
Some Android OEMs will allow you to unlock the bootloader and makes changes to the OS without any warranty problems.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by tushartyagi on Monday December 10, 2018 @01:38AM (#18645727)
The problem with this is that the bootloader is now becoming more and more locked down and the consumers have to jump ever more hoops to unlock it.

Some years ago I had Samsung S2 where unlocking the bootloader was an offline activity. I don't remember how but doing that was quick and easy. Now I own a MotoG4 where unlocking means going to some website, entering my email address and then receiving unlock code in my email. If Motorola knows my email address, or can link the (supposedly unique) unlock code to my phone, what's stopping them from voiding my warranty?

I have a hunch that newer versions of some mainstream phones do not allow unlocking the bootloader, and this is going to become more and more common.

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by ikeboy on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:15PM (#18652579)
Newest Samsungs cannot be unlocked
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by orf on Sunday December 09, 2018 @08:50AM (#18640834)
Magisk takes care of that.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by amelius on Sunday December 09, 2018 @09:56AM (#18641087)
Yes, but for how long?
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by dextersgenius on Sunday December 09, 2018 @06:19PM (#18643954)
Does it matter? There are alternative stores (F-Droid, Amazon, Yalp) and microG for Google login/push notifications.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by icebraining on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:31AM (#18641642)
So if I make a proprietary application that only runs on, say, Ubuntu, does that mean GNU/Linux is no longer really free, since you can't replace your distro with Arch without losing access to my application?
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by jstanley on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:33AM (#18641669)
If your application is an intrinsic part of pretty much every GNU/Linux system, then yeah, pretty much.

It's not GNU/Linux that's not free, but it makes it hard to use a GNU/Linux system that is free.

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by jjeaff on Sunday December 09, 2018 @02:35PM (#18642769)
Play store is not a requirement. You can use f-droid or something similar and it has most everything you might need.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by jstanley on Sunday December 09, 2018 @02:50PM (#18642861)
I know, and I do. In fact I don't have play services installed at all.

Unfortunately most people consider the play store to be a necessity, so its non-free nature is a problem.

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by notacoward on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:41AM (#18641719)
> does that mean GNU/Linux is no longer really free

I'd say it's a bit of a different situation, since the two are not being designed to work together and aren't even being developed by the same people. If the Ubuntu developers made your proprietary app key to the useful running of the system, which is the more exact analogy, then I'd say yeah, they would have made it non-free.

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by icebraining on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:43AM (#18641727)
What app is key to the useful running of Android and that refuses to run on a modified system?
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by gcb0 on Sunday December 09, 2018 @10:13AM (#18641170)
there is open source and open source thru google's gates.

on the later you submit patches, they will be included in the next 2 to 3 versions of public release (if they dont't add any feature that impacts google's ad bottom line, for example, adding any sort of referrer control to chrome), then you have to hope that in those 2-3 version cycle your device is still supported, now you just have to wait for the convenient over the ait update provided by your telco or phone manufacturer (in most cases you actually need both entities to take part)

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by icebraining on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:47AM (#18641759)
That's not Google's gates, that's the OEM's and the ISP's. Google can only control that for their own devices, and the Nexuses have always been some of the most modded ones.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by gcb0 on Sunday December 09, 2018 @02:46PM (#18642842)
Google own the merge rigths, and what goes into each version. and their process timings ensure that by the time you patch is out, your device is not getting updates anymore (update timeframe that they set both in contract with oem or via "example" via their nexus series)
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by icebraining on Sunday December 09, 2018 @03:40PM (#18643118)
What merge rights? You can build Android yourself and install it directly on your phone, and let others do the same - unless if the OEM's and ISP's gates prevent you.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by gcb0 on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @01:39AM (#18653601)
unless "your device" is the emulator, there is no way to get hold of drivers or firmware for anything other than lifting them of an blessed rom ... and only if you can get the parity you need with the kernel you are using.

there's a very good reason the "supported device list" of all forks is always very, very small (even with the outlandish claims on most of them such as "supported. touch screen and modem still not working" )

just becuase the build steps for your fork project automates some of that driver/kernel lifting, doesn't make it any better.

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by icebraining on Wednesday December 12, 2018 @07:57AM (#18663474)
And all of that is also gatekeeping by the OEMs.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by z3t4 on Sunday December 09, 2018 @07:24PM (#18644268)
Mobile technology moves so fast Android can't keep up with the support of all hardware out there, so you can't simply buy any smartphone and expect everything to work with the latest Android release.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by dcbadacd on Sunday December 09, 2018 @07:42PM (#18644326)
It's not Android that can't keep up, it's SoC manufacturers that are lazy.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by smileysteve on Sunday December 09, 2018 @02:25PM (#18642716)
This is a poor example because Play is its own set up apps licensed by Google (paid for by manufacturers) and not core to the os itself.
Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by deogeo on Sunday December 09, 2018 @09:24AM (#18640965)
> I'm not saying open source is bad and everyone should prefer free software.

Why not?

Re:Do I really need to get out the soldering-iron again? by notacoward on Sunday December 09, 2018 @10:21AM (#18641208)
Because that debate tends to get very contentious. It's an important debate to have, but I've already been in it many times and watched it even more so I'm not particularly in the mood to go through it this morning.