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Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by hardwaresofton on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:29PM (#18544407)
I've long suspected this was the only remotely feasible way to remove bias from recruiting (and possibly interviewing itself) -- I'm interested to see how this will go.

Politics about bias and diversity aside, if your goal was to objectively disable people from being biased, the simplest solution always seemed to be to remove their ability to apply any of their biases.

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by laurentl on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @04:21PM (#18546902)
It was tried in France without great success. The law was passed in 2006 but the application decree (which states how/when the law comes into effect) was never published. Consequently, this law was never upheld. Why? Field trials between 2006 and 2009 showed it didn't have a measurable effect and in some cases ended up discriminating more. The experiments' results are controversial (small sample size) but despite pushes in 2011 and 2014 the law seems effectively dead in the water.

Anecdotally, I've been on the recruiting end of "anonimized" CVs pushed by outsourcing companies. I was never fully clear on whether this was a legal requirements for them, or if it was a gesture to show inclusiveness and social responsibility on their part (take this with a pinch of salt, most outsourcing companies in France are little better than horse-dealers and will push any warm body your way if they think they can turn a profit). At any rate, most of these were hilariously badly done: using initials for the last name but leaving the first name in full, leaving telling initials (1), or other subtle or less subtle ways to hint at the contractor's origin and gender.

(1) e.g. a first name initialed J.L., J.M. or some other variation points to a Jean-something (Jean-Louis, Jean-Michel, etc.) composite first name, which is a clear indication of a "native" Frenchman (and a hint as to the person's age as well)

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by hardwaresofton on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @07:34PM (#18548242)
I really wish there was more published about why it did/didn't work -- I saw the other posts about similar studies that all seemed to fail, but the details seem really scant.

It's still unclear whether the problem was with the implementation (the experiment) or the method.

If there's spooky action/unintuitive reality at play here it's the job of a good scientific study to pull it out and lay it bare.

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by zifnab06 on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @03:52AM (#18550153)
IME, outsourcing companies do this so you have to go through them to talk to the individual attached to the resume, not for any moral purpose. I've been on the receiving end of that one - a recruiting firm was sending out a (poorly) anonymized copy of my resume without my knowledge.
Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by longerthoughts on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:50PM (#18544668)
>the simplest solution always seemed to be to remove their ability to apply any of their biases

Bias will exist regardless of which information you present, the most you can hope for is shifting and limiting the types of bias that come into play to eliminate useless or harmful bias. Even if you grant anonymity to the applicant, recruiters can still be biased against or in favor of the school somebody went to, what they studied, the organizations they were involved in, etc.

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by Z1515M8147 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:13PM (#18544927)
For thia reason I hire based on anonymized data that also discards all place name locations and institutions. The result is quite effective, as you are presented with an applications that show only the bare bones of someone's experiences without context that might bias you.
Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by thatcat on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:42PM (#18546477)
Do you continue to ignore this information in the interview phase?
Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by proxygeek on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:22PM (#18545029)
Recently I've been thinking about inherent biased towards applicants based on their prior work / educational history, in terms of organizations they have been to.

I get that it acts as a moderate signal of how tenacious and inherently able that applicant might have been in the past if she went to XYZ school or ABC company. But there will be so many false negatives!

A lot of folks who probably would be otherwise capable of the job at hand would be dismissed for not having the right pedigree. Also, past performance is not always the best Intuit if future success.

And then of course is the issue of how do you even define success, especially in case if university graduates. How does a Yale or Harvard define our measure success for its students... Probably in terms of potential impact they have on the world or how good their names may look on the rolls 10 years down the line.

A lot of the issues, especially in terms of job applicators but also applicable in admissions process, ultimately comes down to information and numeric asymmetry between the organisation and the applicant.

If there was a way to somehow capture the readings - however brief - for rejection or selection of applicants or a documented scoring methodology, that itself would bring a lot of change.

I would love to know if some resources to further explore the alternative models of applicant assessment which does not place as much importance on the past organisations / schools they have been to.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by tomrod on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:50PM (#18545362)
Score applicants blindly.

Adhere hiring decisions to defined generational imbalance correction mechanisms (in the US, "affirmative action"/EEOC/similar state laws).

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by manigandham on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:45PM (#18545994)
No thanks. I am my own person. I don't need or want any "correction" mechanisms because of people I don't know and have nothing to do with. That would be ridiculous.
Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by tomrod on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @05:25PM (#18547428)
You bring up a certainly superficially valid point. You may be your own person, but, from a normative sense, your personage benefits from a long history of both benefits and detriments defined and in place long before you were born, and much bigger than yourself.

The goal of these bindings are to remove inherent bias. Some of that is bred into the intercept defined by unchangeable characteristics. Others by the vector field of rewards return for effort, often defined by thar initial condition. The goal with most of these (apparently feared? do I have your emotion right?) corrections is to offset at least the most damning of these.

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by manigandham on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @05:43PM (#18547558)
Fear? No. It's disgust at the brazen rationalization of outright discrimination based on some holier-than-thou moral attitude by saying group X is better or worse than group Y because of history that has nothing to do with the individual. Why must people be considered as a member of a group instead of their personal character and actions that they're actually accountable for?

Perhaps what's most insidious about ascribing group victimhood is that you must also accept the converse, which is group responsibility. Are you suddenly going to be held responsible for any wrongs that your group has ever committed? Are you truly certain that's what you want?

You are ignoring that life is not fair, and never will be. We cannot control the bodies and circumstances we are born into. But every individual has the ability to make the most of their opportunity and achieve their goals, and quite a few in history have proven that they are able to accomplish far more by effort and will than any natural advantage otherwise. That is the best we can do, and unless you create some matrix world where we are all exactly equivalent clones of the same capacity, that is all that is possible.

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by tomrod on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @07:05PM (#18548082)
Ah. I couldn't tell if your approach towards non-autarky approaches was fear or disgust. Thanks for clarifying.

It is important to note that the unfairness you describe doesn't affect the positive (non-normative) observations of bias-preservation that the blind hiring approach persists.

Now, pivoting to moral claims along the lines of your comment:

Discrimination has a long history, of which slavery, carting to reservations, redlining,and so forth favored certain groups consistently above others, in the past and in the present. In my view, repairing at least the present entrenched bias by any name is in order, the question is to what level. Autarky is a feasible outcome, if desired, which is to do nothing. The diffusion of favored and privileged status will always feel like discrimination to the group that had favored status. There is still a moral imperative to at least correct current entrenched bias, which in the US can show up in incarceration rates, ability to invest, etc.etc.

Unless you feel these groups that are historically and currently biased against are somehow responsible for their own situations? If that is the case, autarky or favoring your personal situation has a basis to build on. However, I fail to see how various denigrated groups through time brought their current biased outcomes. You've been shown evidence by other commentators that in the US blacks receive longer sentences than whites. Is that just how it is, or do we have as a society a moral imperative to fix at least the current system, let alone offer historical reparations?

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by manigandham on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:36PM (#18548826)
I never said let's do nothing. I'm completely in favor of making hiring as blind as possible, especially to any physical and biological traits. I believe it's your stance that we should not do this.

Anyways, you didn't answer why people must be considered as groups instead of individuals? That seems to be the only lens you consider people, while also only choosing the group identity of the most perceived victimhood over an arbitrary time frame. And again, if you want to say that someone takes on the wrongs experienced by a group, then they must also take responsibility for the wrongs committed by the group. So in your example about US blacks, that group also commits the majority of crimes so they must acknowledge and resolve that too. Are you prepared to say that?

You're changing the argument into something about morality but the reality is that there is no cosmic justice. You can be born with missing limbs, or to a destitute family, or inside North Korea. The best we can do is make sure that if you work hard (and yes, harder than others who might be born to a billionaire US family) that you get the same exact chance to gain a position because you are actually competent and qualified for it, and what you look like and what some group in the past has done has absolutely nothing to do with that.

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by hardwaresofton on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @07:38PM (#18548264)
I think that's more of a problem of degree -- it's hard to pin down where harmful bias starts, but if you can do that, then this makes the anonymization solution even more applicable.

The question is whether the school is offering a harmful bias -- people get screened by school, GPA, etc all the time but at the point that society agrees these are harmful then you can just anonymize them out. It gets murkier on the moral/ethical side but I think that's the nature of the problem, not a problem with the solution.

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by scarmig on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:49PM (#18544652)
I wonder how far it goes. In the USA, there are universities that have very distinctive ethnic compositions: UC Irvine is very different from Howard is very different from BYU. Do they anonymize the university name as well? Perhaps translating it to "large research university" and "liberal arts college." Though probably you can get some signals from there as well.
Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by paulie_a on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:12PM (#18544915)
Personally I've never understood the importance put on degrees in the tech field. Sure it is important for your first job, but after 2 years, who cares. When reviewing resumes, if the person has been in the industry for a bit, the degree is irrelevant. And the fancy expensive school, big whoop. I rarely even read that section. I only care about their recent accomplishments and hopefully they have a good number of past ones.
Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by turtlecloud on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:39PM (#18545232)
Because of compounding effects of good habits staring in high school that consequently lead to going to a good school.
Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by L_Rahman on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:18PM (#18546269)
The idea that high school students have good habits that lead them to good colleges that lead to good work behavior is a laughable one.

I say this as someone who won the "game" on every count with this. Near-perfect SAT score, perfect high school performance, 100% acceptance rate into the Ivies (Harvard, Columbia, Penn, Cornell).

These say nothing about me other than my parenting, background and ability to win games that other people made up. Any intelligence or ability or skill or discipline that I have is in spite of those things, not because of them.

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by _dps on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:48PM (#18546526)
> ability to win games that other people made up

A common game bosses make up: "impress me with growth in this KPI by next quarter"

Rather than proving it is laughable, you are instead giving the exact reason why (under a certain value system) it makes lots of sense to select for this ability.

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by L_Rahman on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @04:44PM (#18547123)
This is a fair argument and I will concede that if we're thinking about success as the getting high quality compliance for managerial games (which really does make up most entry level work in finance, consulting and tech) then hiring from a top school is highly predictive.

Going more meta, starting a median VC-backed company in the Valley is largely playing the same kind of game as in elite private schools and colleges - observing a social scene, identifying powerful players and the ladder to reach them, meticulously performing the necessary social roles in order to achieve funding, cargo cult management styles from the group.

Re:Helsinki to Begin Anonymous Recruiting by paulie_a on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:45PM (#18545993)
They could have gone to a community college or Stanford, or been a college drop out. It's not going to sway me. What have you accomplished and will you become a productive and good person to work with is all that matters.