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Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by Cyclone_ on Monday November 26, 2018 @11:25PM (#18539351)
Doesn't surprise me, younger millenials won't have a home to sell and will thus have a hard time affording a home in an inflated market. Compounded with the fact that median wages haven't increased that much the last 30 years. Prices have to fall for that group to afford a home.
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by iscrewyou on Monday November 26, 2018 @11:45PM (#18539454)
I really feel like this is it. Debt was introduced to parents of millennials. But it took some time to become institutionalized. Now millennials are in debt right as they get out of college. No matter what college you leave, you can have debt if your parents didn’t pay for your tuition. On top of that, wages have been stagnant. Then there is the credit card debt that is very easy to accumulate is you aren’t careful with the money that you do have. This younger generation is too busy paying off their debt. Then they are expected to save 5 years worth of salary to pay for house down payment so they can get a mortgage for 30 years. It’s possible to make it happen but it requires a lot more effort than it did for our parents or grandparents.
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by allthecybers on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:23AM (#18539649)
Even as a DINK millennial couple with a combined low six figure income a home purchase feels like a poor investment. Not only the down-payment of $100k+ but the property tax increases and then having to pay that mortgage for 30 years. Since we expect mobility and a certain level of future uncertainty it just doesn’t make sense for us and many more of our generation to tie ourselves to such and expensive geographic anchor.
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by EADGBE on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:53AM (#18542691)
The "NK" part of your "DINK" is probably influencing your decision on whether it's a worthy decision to buy a home.

As a "DI3K", a house makes a ton of sense. We need space, we need a place for five people to live, and we need a house in an area where the schools are going to be great for the next 18 years. We don't need mobility as far as relocation goes, because it just doesn't make sense in our life choices right now. I mean, it's certainly possible, but I've seen second-hand what moving from town to town every 6 months does to a 7-year-old.

I'm not mad that our property (as far from the coasts as possible) has increased in value ~$50-80K, either.

Don't forget shorter mortgage commitments are available (And a much better deal when you can swing them).

Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by m0rose on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:08AM (#18543481)
"(as far from the coasts as possible)" piques my interest. Why do you want to be as far from the coasts as possible?
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by EADGBE on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:29PM (#18545822)
I only meant for that as an example of a regular place for housing also seeing increased housing prices.
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by gowld on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:39AM (#18539732)
You can rent out that investment if you move. Paying rent is also expensive where home prices are expensive.
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by nostrademons on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:51AM (#18540096)
A lot of working professionals don't want the hassle of also being landlords, particularly remote landlords. If your tenant has a habitability issue, it's your problem. If they don't pay rent and you have to evict them, it's your problem. If they trash the place, it's your problem.

If you pay a property manager 10% to make it their problem, the economics of paying a mortgage on a home you're no longer living in and renting it out become significantly more questionable - particularly in some place like the Bay Area, where mortgage payments are already often more than you would pay to rent the equivalent dwelling.

Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by Latteland on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:03AM (#18539849)
If you are lucky you can get money from renting. If you were unlucky and had a house in the rust belt and jobs disappeared then few people could buy or rent your house. So people can get trapped. At least you can expunge your mortgage debt with bankruptcy. Not being able to expunge education debt is what's holding our economy down.
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by sokoloff on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:47AM (#18540066)
Not being able to expunge education debt is what makes education lending possible.

Otherwise, there’d be a line to file strategic bankruptcy after the last tuition payment was due...

Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by aedron on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @05:37AM (#18541182)
Cheap borrowing drives up prices of goods. This is true in housing and it is true in education.
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by EADGBE on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:56AM (#18542711)
Revocation of a degree with the dissolving of student loan debt in bankruptcy certainly could work for some.
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by sokoloff on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:11PM (#18544899)
That doesn't make the lender whole, though; there's nothing they can repossess or foreclose on.

It's a mild deterrent for some cases, but for a lot of situations, having the degree isn't anywhere near as valuable as having the education.

Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by tcbawo on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:44PM (#18548858)
Other (less fair) ways of doing it include requiring a co-signer or allocating some assets as escrow. Although, like healthcare, the problem is probably the cost not the financing.
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by thedailymail on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:33AM (#18540279)
Why would anyone file for bankruptcy right before paying their last tuition payment?
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by lowpro on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:28AM (#18542500)
I think the OP meant “make their last tuition payment to the university”, in other words, they’ve fully taken on the debt of education and are about to graduate.
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by sokoloff on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:25PM (#18544359)
Indeed. I'm not quite sure how that was misread.
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by gowld on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:36AM (#18539712)
A home should be about 3x salary at most, so down paymeny is 0.6 years' salary. Did you mean 5 years worth of savings?
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by tomrod on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:29AM (#18542503)
Dallas median wage is $63.8k in 2016, median home prices closer to $230 to $250 depending on which town (some significantly higher). That is about 4x income, following your heuristic we should expect the median to fall a bit?
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by EADGBE on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:58AM (#18542729)
I don't like this X-Salary rule. It assumes no other large notes, which is more of what mortgage underwriters are caring about (debt-to-income ratios).

Not having two student loan payments and a couple unnecessarily-high car payments (a couple well-to-do millennials surely make possible) could certainly push your mortgage affordability much higher than someone straddle with that debt (but completely able to pay and maintain it).

Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by tomrod on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:01PM (#18548662)
8 think that's why the X-salary rule is usually considered an upper bound?
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by iscrewyou on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:09AM (#18543508)
Yes, I meant 5 years worth of savings. Thanks for correcting me.
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by wonderwonder on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:21AM (#18539640)
Builders keep building homes, home prices keep going up. In order for people to buy the newly built homes, you need to keep adding people capable of affording the inflated housing prices to the market. As you stated, millennial's (and many others) cannot afford it due to stagnant wages and student loan debt. They also cant afford the insane rents in many cities so ~23% of them live at home with their parents.

Eventually there are a ton of empty houses on the market without buyers, sellers are forced to lower their prices. People in upside down mortgages cannot sell as housing prices are lowered and foreclose, further dragging down the price. Market crashes. People with capital swoop in and buy up houses to rent out, driving up rent further as they can set the price.

This collapse will be slightly quicker than the last as the market is not as propped up with sub prime style loans. If salaries don't keep up with inflation a crash is inevitable. Deck is stacked against people without a strong financial base (upper middle class parents) but hey, they can stay on their parents health insurance for longer now, so that's nice.

Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by sokoloff on Monday November 26, 2018 @11:42PM (#18539436)
> Compounded with the fact that median wages haven't increased that much the last 30 years.

Median income has gone up by about 150% (to 2.5x) in nominal terms between 1986 and 2016.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA646N

Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by makmanalp on Monday November 26, 2018 @11:50PM (#18539485)
Why look at nominal though? Inflation adjusted makes a lot more sense to me, especially when we're talking about household income.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

The story here is quite different - only a 19% increase, and much more unstable over the years. Most of the increase happened before 2000. Almost no change since then.

Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by conception on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:36AM (#18539707)
I ran across an interesting proposal that one of the reasons for poor wage growth is health insurance costs -

Health Care and Other Benefit Costs

As nonwage benefits are beefed up by U.S. employers, such as expanded paid leave and performance-based bonuses, fewer dollars in their total rewards budgets may be available for salary increases.

But health care benefit costs are a prime suspect.

"The rise of health-care costs is the most important reason wages have not increased more for U.S. workers," Nobel economics laureate Edward C. Prescott and Lee E. Ohanian of the Center for the Advanced Study in Economic Efficiency at Arizona State University, wrote in the Wall Street Journal in 2018. "The extra compensation is swallowed up by health-insurance premiums."

A new white paper provides evidence that "the rising values of fringe benefits, such as health insurance, may have offset potential wage gains for middle-income workers" despite falling unemployment. The authors, Jeff Larrimore of the Federal Reserve and David Splinter of the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation, contend that when factoring in the cost of health coverage, "total compensation may be higher than previously believed, also implying that employer-sponsored health insurance benefits may represent a larger share of employee compensation."

Economics columnist Robert J. Samuelson wrote in the Washington Post:

    The problem is plain: We'd all like both cheaper health insurance and higher wages, but the way the health-care system is operating today, we might get neither. As insurance premiums get more expensive, inflation-adjusted ("real") wages will continue to stagnate or decline.
https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/hr-topics/compensatio...
Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by sokoloff on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:08AM (#18539578)
Two reasons:

1. Every idiotic meme about how goods X, Y, and Z have more than doubled in price while [real] wages haven't. I'm torn between thinking the meme creators are completely clueless or epic trolls.

2. There is a substantial linkage between nominal wages and nominal inflation, especially for limited, competitively bid goods (like housing).

Looking at median house prices https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA , it looks like they went up slightly more than median wages (2.85x vs 2.5x in 30 years), which I think is likely more than explained by today's lower than historical norms interest rates (increasing affordability). https://www.macrotrends.net/2604/30-year-fixed-mortgage-rate...

Mortgage rates over 10% in 1988 and under 5% today means that 1988 houses were less affordable on 1988 wages than 2018 houses are on 2018 wages.

Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by dmichulke on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:47AM (#18540068)
Mortgage rates in the US have (AFAIK) usually a variable interest rate.

That means that it's sufficient for the lower income tiers (relative to the house value) to have a few months of high interest rates (in a time frame of 15-25 years) in order to lose the house.

Buying at the current rates is risky, while the risk of rising rates in 1988 was much lower. Factoring that in should change your conclusion.

Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by nostrademons on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:17AM (#18540217)
As of 2017, 90% of mortgages in the U.S. were 30-year fixed. 6% were 15-year fixed. Only 2% were ARMs.

http://www.freddiemac.com/perspectives/sean_becketti/2017041...

People got burned bad by ARMs in the housing crash of 2009 and they still aren't willing to take the risk.

Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by sokoloff on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @08:30AM (#18542101)
Thanks for bringing data into the discussion!

("Yes and") There's also very little rate benefit to adjustable mortgages right now, so it's quite sensible to take a fixed rate mortgage. When I bought my first house (in 1996), I recall that fixed rate mortgages were several points higher than adjustable rate mortgages during their fixed portion. In cases like that, it made for an actual decision.

With both fixed rates and ARMs having roughly the same initial rates, there's little reason to choose adjustable.

Re:The U.S. Housing Boom Is Coming to an End, Starting in Da... by dmichulke on Monday November 26, 2018 @11:49PM (#18539478)
It increased a thousand fold in Venezuela and Zimbabwe - I'm guessing here but it should get the point across