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Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by twblalock on Sunday November 25, 2018 @07:38PM (#18530079)
This is why it's hard to get support for public transit funding. People don't want to take public transit if they will fear for their lives, or be surrounded by drug addicts and mentally disturbed people yelling at and spitting on other passengers.

BART trains and stations are like this on a regular basis; Muni has the same problems but not as bad. I've seen this kind of thing happen on Caltrain late at night also, but much less often. I have never, ever seen it happen in London or anywhere in Japan.

It's easy for people in the Bay Area to believe this is what all public transit is like, unless they have experienced better systems elsewhere. Why would they want to use it, or pay for it with their tax money? It's safer to take your own car, or an Uber.

I'm a big fan of public transit, especially trains, but it's just never going to be improved in the Bay Area if people don't feel safe.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by esotericn on Sunday November 25, 2018 @08:19PM (#18530282)
Is this just an American thing? Healthcare funding, or something?

I've never been to SF, but I've visited NYC, and the subway there feels like stepping in to a horror movie.

During a two week visit I saw people passing out and being ignored (I was the only one attempting to help), individuals swinging around bricks in socks, and various other obvious examples of severely mentally ill individuals.

In London I've never seen anything like it.

It genuinely felt like stepping in to some sort of twilight zone. Compounded by the fact that other commuters seemed jaded, as if it was normal to be regularly surrounded by individuals who act more like rogue AIs than human beings.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by twblalock on Sunday November 25, 2018 @08:47PM (#18530408)
I think it really boils down to American voters having lower standards and being resigned to the fact that these things happen. I don't think a single politician has lost re-election over it recently. The last time there was a significant voter backlash over crime in New York was when Giuliani was elected mayor in the 1990s, and crime was a lot worse back then.

I suspect that elected officials would feel significant pressure to act if this happened in London on a regular basis.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by diogenescynic on Monday November 26, 2018 @12:16AM (#18531238)
In this case it seems more like a Bay Area thing where the politicians and bleeding hearts want to be soft on crime but then it quickly becomes a downward spiral... For example, cops don’t do anything about most property crimes and theft and treat it as an insurance problem, they’ll tell you to report it to 311. Then they stop caring about trespassing and loitering and litering. Then they let junkies on BART and other criminals who don’t pay because “they don’t have anywhere else to go, have a heart.” So they’re constantly enabling this criminal behavior by preventing any real consequences. Because the voters don’t demand change, the District Attorneys and Judges largely do nothing about it either. I’m a social democrat but San Francisco is a cesspit. Being liberal/progressive shouldn’t mean letting junkies take over you city, defrcate in the street, and destroy the public life for everyone else. We’ve got to start creating some boundaries for this behavior and that starts with actual consequences for crimes. I think BART might have to be fined for them to take it seriously.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by satori99 on Sunday November 25, 2018 @10:07PM (#18530744)
Surely it must be.

In my country, our recently former Prime Minister was known to regularly catch trains while going about his government business. Sometimes with a cabinet minister. Sometime on his own. And rarely, if ever, with a visible security detail.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Malcolm+Turnbull+train&tbm=i...

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by thatswrong0 on Sunday November 25, 2018 @08:59PM (#18530450)
The funny thing is that, to me, the NYC system seems to work so much better than San Francisco’s, based on my usage of it. And NYC also has a much bigger police presence than San Francisco, which results in it feeling like a much safer city.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by louisswiss on Monday November 26, 2018 @06:08AM (#18532488)
Agreed. NYC didn't feel much worse than London or Berlin. Even late at night. Public transport in SF was scary.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by barrow-rider on Monday November 26, 2018 @12:32PM (#18535077)
I'll also second this. Not as clean or orderly as the DC metro, but for the most part the NYC subway was easy and simple to get around in.

Only time I've ever been jumped or harassed on a train was in Madrid.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by m1sta_ on Sunday November 25, 2018 @10:38PM (#18530860)
It’s due to a failure to enforce the law. The reason for that failure is needs to be addressed.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by rorykoehler on Monday November 26, 2018 @01:06AM (#18531462)
Is it really though? I feel like Americans regularly say things like this (guns is another similar topic) which only reflects an inability to think many steps down the line from the outcome. There is something deeper at play and I would suspect that it has to do with economic insecurity and lack of opportunity which is further compounded by a lack of education and social cohesion in general. American values are all wrong. You only need to look at the Black Friday mayhem for an example.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by selestify on Monday November 26, 2018 @04:54AM (#18532219)
How would one go about fixing such abstract things as social cohesion and societal values?
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by rorykoehler on Monday November 26, 2018 @07:19AM (#18532774)
A new social contract that distributes wealth more evenly. A focus on education, nutrition and healthy urban environments. Supporting parents so they can support their children (2 working parents is an absolute recipe for disaster). All the normal stuff we know we should be doing but don't. If you are interested in the importance of childhood and parenting there is a great doc series on Netflix called "The beginning of life".
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by gaius on Monday November 26, 2018 @09:55AM (#18533708)
America had that chance but Bernie was stabbed in the back. Maybe AOC can deliver.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by rorykoehler on Monday November 26, 2018 @10:03AM (#18533769)
It will take a lot more than one election. America needs to reevaluate it's relationship with many things including poverty, work, race, education, taxes, healthcare etc. It will be a long road however I am hopeful that the likes of AOC and Andrew Yang can start to shine a light on it and kick off the process.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by leetcrew on Monday November 26, 2018 @05:32PM (#18537457)
> American values are all wrong.

how can you tell when values are wrong?

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by chaostheory on Sunday November 25, 2018 @08:55PM (#18530441)
I feel that this somewhat due to the lack of mental health funding in the US. It's one issue that affects so many areas such as homelessness and crime, yet funding mental health programs is just not popular with voters and politicians in the US.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by JustSomeNobody on Monday November 26, 2018 @07:59AM (#18532988)
Anything that even resembles taking care of other people is not popular in the US. There's no "preventative" care for people in here, either. We foster and think that a percentage of the children taken from their parents didn't need to happen if the parents were able to get help before it got bad enough for the children to be removed. But, oh wow, when I tell people my thoughts on that they look at me like I'm about to steal their wallet!
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by louisswiss on Monday November 26, 2018 @06:19AM (#18532531)
> individuals who act more like rogue AIs than human beings.

That's a chilling but very accurate description. I don't have children, but I doubt I could live in SF/LA/NYC with kids. There isn't a major European city I'd say that for.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by toomanybeersies on Monday November 26, 2018 @03:15AM (#18531849)
A big part of it is that people don't want to cause themselves trouble.

It's not often that I see people having fights in public here in Australia, but on the odd occasion that people are misbehaving, I really don't want to cause myself trouble and hurt myself. I'm not inclined to get bottled or stabbed for trying to help someone out.

On the other hand, if I do come across someone passed out in public who looks a bit fucked up, I will make sure they're alive and at least vaguely responsive, and roll them into the recovery position. I wouldn't call an ambulance though because they're expensive and I don't want to cause someone a $2000 bill because they were just drunk and sleeping it off.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by CaptainZapp on Monday November 26, 2018 @04:48AM (#18532187)
That's a really American perspective about public transport. Here's a counter example:

While Marcel Rohner[1] was CEO of UBS he took the train from Aarau, where he lived, to UBS' head office in Zurich. That's despite the fact that the CEO of UBS has a car and driver at his disposal.

But the point is that he'd nevertheless be stuck in traffic jams like us mere mortals and taking the train is just that much more efficient.

And that's the thing. People chose their mode of transportation based on efficiency and economics. You're not, by definition, a social outcast just because you use train, trams of buses and that goes for a lot of countries outside the US, provided there's investment into the public transport infrastructure. But unless people feel safe it's a non-starter if you have alternatives.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Rohner_(banker)

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by siruncledrew on Sunday November 25, 2018 @11:43PM (#18531135)
If you ever want to give a Japanese visitor a significant culture shock, ride with them on the train (whether it's SF, NY, DC).

Untimely train schedules. Disorderly conduct. Blatant disregard for the rules.

I took the 7 Train from Grand Central to Flushing with a visiting Japanese colleague in NY. The face of concern he gave while on the train was like he was witnessing purgatory. I remember he looked at me and said, "Is this safe?", to which I replied, "I don't know, I guess so". Retrospectively, the honesty did not ease the anxiety. The crowdedness part he had no trouble in managing, given how packed the Tokyo metro could be. What struck the most was: 1. The lack of fucks people gave on train, 2. How much of a free-for-all the US metro systems are, and 3. How on-edge people are. There's people who take naps with their phones out on Japanese trains. On the NY metro, he was wide awake and clutching his belongings for dear life the entire ride. Of the various things to appreciate about the U.S., that was certainly not a highlight.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by anigbrowl on Sunday November 25, 2018 @08:38PM (#18530369)
True, but a plaintiff's lawyer has an incentive to overstate the problem on the client's behalf. It's irresponsible journalism to just quot this and attribute it to 'lawyer' (a stereo typically responsible person) without mentioning the adversarial context in which the remark is made. 'Plaintiff alleges BART 'a free-for-all' for Criminals' would have been better.

The attorney's duty is to maximize the perceived level of risk, just as it is the defense lawyer's job to dispute that. The article only mentions a single statistic showing a 28% increase in crime in the first 6 months of 2018. One hopes the complaint is more statistically rigorous.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by pteredactyl on Sunday November 25, 2018 @09:06PM (#18530487)
It's true though. Do you ride BART or live in SF or Oakland?
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by anigbrowl on Sunday November 25, 2018 @10:47PM (#18530901)
I don't think it is, and yes I do. I'm well aware that crimes happen on BART, someone was murdered at my local station not long ago. But I don't think that 'lawless' is a good description, although many of my journeys take me to stereotypically sketchy stations or occur late at night.

It's because of this subjectivity that I said I hoped the case would turn on a more rigorous definition.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by diogenescynic on Monday November 26, 2018 @12:36AM (#18531328)
Compared to any transit system in another developed country, BART is absolutely lawless.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by cylinder on Monday November 26, 2018 @07:20AM (#18532777)
A guy was murdered at your station recently and a girl was murdered randomly at another station less than a week ago. On the same system! And you think this is normal and not an indication of lawlessness? This is not normal! If there were murders regularly on systems outside of the US they would be national events. This is a good demonstration of how we got here.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by anigbrowl on Monday November 26, 2018 @07:25PM (#18538145)
Nobody was murdered on Bart less than a week ago, and the murder I was talking about was of a girl, not a guy, back in late July. Getting simple facts wrong is a poor way to begin an argument.

BART is certainly more dangerous than other transit systems in other developed countries, because the US in general is more dangerous than other countries. Deplorable as this is, clusters in small sample sizes are often misleading as to statistical trends, and many of the people commenting here seem not to have first hand experience riding BART.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by umanwizard on Sunday November 25, 2018 @07:55PM (#18530156)
I don’t have the numbers to back this up, but I strongly suspect that if the true cost of driving (both in terms of environmental destruction and massive land use and construction cost for roads and parking lots) were reflected in the price of cars or gas, people simply wouldn’t be able to afford the luxury of a private commute, and mass transit systems would be able to compete even without any public funding at all.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by closeparen on Sunday November 25, 2018 @08:02PM (#18530197)
Sure, but you are describing a situation in which commuters are strictly worse off. It’s unlikely they will vote for that.

Remember also that existing transit links are beyond fully saturated. It’s not really possible for people to switch to transit en masse before the decades it takes us to build bus terminals and train tunnels have elapsed. No public transit system has the slack to absorb the Bay Bridge drive-alone traffic, let alone 101 or 280. People physically won’t fit into the vehicles. There are decade-scale projects to address that, and I support them, but I don’t expect to see their fruits during my working life. Anyone working now is going to be retired by the time a second Transbay Tube starts passenger service, assuming we vote to fund it right now.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by jblow on Sunday November 25, 2018 @08:33PM (#18530340)
The original Bay Bridge was built in 3 years, with 1930s technology. We used to not be a bunch of incompetent idiots when it came to building infrastructure, but now we clearly are. I understand why people don’t want to pay large amounts of tax money to pay incompetent idiots to take a long time building tiny amounts of infrastructure.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by closeparen on Sunday November 25, 2018 @08:44PM (#18530392)
Yep. In many ways we are simply stuck with whatever we built before we lost the ability to build things. Not because it’s the best, but because it’s no longer cost effective to improve at current efficiency levels.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by selestify on Monday November 26, 2018 @04:56AM (#18532229)
How did we become so inefficient?
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by scruple on Monday November 26, 2018 @03:57PM (#18536732)
I don't really think that it's about inefficiency or incompetence. Rather, it's about where our priorities, as a society, are today when it comes to infrastructure projects vs. what it was in the post Great Depression era.

Here [0] is an article to covers parts of this exact subject.

[0]: https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2013/08/09/building-the-bay-bri...

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by masonic on Sunday November 25, 2018 @09:21PM (#18530549)
The original design for the Bay Bridge retrofit was $400 million.

Instead, we got a less-safe, grandiose art piece for over $8 billion. $400 million more if you want a bike lane.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by diogenescynic on Monday November 26, 2018 @12:27AM (#18531285)
Is this corruption or incompetence? I honestly think it’s corruption. Why can’t we just outsource this to a European engineering company that is capable of accomplishing this? It just makes no sense to me.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by dagw on Monday November 26, 2018 @02:37AM (#18531742)
a European engineering company that is capable of accomplishing this?

What makes you think European engineering companies are any better? Europe is just as littered with failed, bloated, late and vastly over budget infrastructure projects. Hell the small bridge down the road from my office was supposed to be closed for 4 month for some maintenance work, it's now been closed for 14 month and there is still no estimate for when it will be done.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by closeparen on Monday November 26, 2018 @01:43AM (#18531589)
Corruption was blatant and rampant in the era that saw most of our infrastructure development. The New York City subway was built in the era of Boss Tweed. Honestly I think this is not a coincidence. Projects that balance their own goals with fairness and deference to “stakeholders” will naturally be pathetic compared to projects that simply pursue their goals.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by masonic on Monday November 26, 2018 @02:00AM (#18531633)

  The New York City subway was built in the era of Boss Tweed
The NYC subway system wasn't fully public-operated until 1940.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by masonic on Monday November 26, 2018 @01:10AM (#18531477)
Of course it's corruption (in this case, Jerry Brown and Willie Brown and their minions being the primary drivers).
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by burfog on Monday November 26, 2018 @04:03PM (#18536776)
For cars, the roads really are free.

Road damage is proportional to the 4th power of the vehicle weight. Normal cars effectively do nothing to roads. The damage comes from buses, fire trucks, UPS trucks, FedEx trucks, bucket trucks... and more trucks.

Switching all that to rail is completely unreasonable. Fire departments getting around on rail?

So we need the roads anyway, and cars don't wear them out. Cars do not impose a cost. As it is, car drivers are paying money to fix roads that are being damaged by buses.

What if we charged bus passengers the true cost of taking the bus? Each passenger on a bus is contributing to road damage. Each driver in a car doesn't cause damage.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by xsmasher on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:06AM (#18539867)
Road damage is only part of the story.

How many lanes would we need if there were only trucks on the road? We build massive road capacity to subsidize car use.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by burfog on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:43AM (#18543176)
The vast majority of roads are narrow. The wide ones are extreme outliers. It may seem otherwise if you judge by the portion of time you spend on each type of road, but most roads are quiet little empty lanes.

So, on average, we don't really have more lanes than the minimum.

Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by francisofascii on Sunday November 25, 2018 @09:30PM (#18530588)
The American highway system isn’t any safer. Rampant speeding, tailgating, swerving in and out, distracted on phones, etc. All of which is rarely and lightly punished.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by cylinder on Monday November 26, 2018 @07:23AM (#18532793)
You can probably look at any system in America at the federal level and find it to be vastly less regulated, particularly from a safety standpoint, than anywhere else considered "developed." The exception being commercial aviation perhaps.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by nouseforaname on Monday November 26, 2018 @09:14AM (#18533453)
I do think there's some truth to the idea that our failures in mental health care have some pretty high costs on our society in other places. If we did a better job with mental health/drug addiction, maybe there would be a few less needles and piles of feces for commuters to content with.
Re:Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay ... by burtonator on Sunday November 25, 2018 @08:44PM (#18530393)
> This is why it's hard to get support for public transit funding

My fiance and I took the BART two stops to get to civic center to the Trump protests about 2 weeks ago.

We saw people selling meth/heroin/etc literally INSIDE the BART station in the public... No one cared. No police around.

This happened 2-3 times. We were on for TWO stops.

Seriously... BART needs to clean up their fucking act. I associate BART with homeless people, BO, trash, vomit, fights, and getting robbed.