News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:ECCploit is the first Rowhammer attack to defeat error-co... by userbinator on Thursday November 22, 2018 @08:10AM (#18509768)
Rowhammer is simply defective RAM marketed as usable. If your RAM will corrupt itself with certain access patterns, it is defective and should be replaced.

The manufacturers obviously don't want to, but the only way to stop this stupidity is to reject/return/refuse the product as defective if it shows this vulnerability. There's been a lot of efforts to downplay it, to the point that even some memory testing tools have made the tests for RH optional. This is ridiculous not just from a security standpoint, but overall correctness. Memory that just doesn't behave like memory should, is not fit for purpose.

Unfortunately RAM defects are often very subtle --- I remember a particularly irritating one which happened only when extracting a certain ZIP file; all the memory testing tools said the RAM was fine even with a few days of continuous running, and the file extracted correctly on a handful of other systems, but on this one it would always end up corrupt. Attaching a debugger or otherwise attempting to trace the cause naturally made it disappear. It was only swapping the RAM with a new module that fixed it.

Re:ECCploit is the first Rowhammer attack to defeat error-co... by tangohead on Thursday November 22, 2018 @09:14AM (#18510070)
As a follow on from this, I recently went to a talk by the author and asked whether certain brands of RAM was more vulnerable than others. They said that the newer the brand (and so newer the production process), the more bits are likely to flip, but even more established brands would still have some vulnerable bits.

So it seems more of an issue with a change in acceptable tolerances - what is fine for normal usage might not be secure. Also, I might have been mistaken but the author's response implied that no brand of RAM was not vulnerable.

Re:ECCploit is the first Rowhammer attack to defeat error-co... by kabdib on Thursday November 22, 2018 @10:32AM (#18510535)
Hmmm . . . some bright spark in marketing will realize there's an opportunity in "secure DRAM" now . . . :-/
Re:ECCploit is the first Rowhammer attack to defeat error-co... by verall on Thursday November 22, 2018 @01:16PM (#18511531)
I get the sentiment around this, especially as there's no way to reasonably get ram that isn't susceptible to these failure patterns.

But, with that said, memory is extremely low margin (dram is a commodity market) and is priced part based on yield. Manufacturers adding rounds of QA likely to fail many chips, pushing yield down and promoting process changes is extremely expensive. I also want to pressure manufacturers to make more reliable, correct product, but that has a cost. Even if a law was passed that all commodity dram had to be RH-hard, price would jump. In any other scenario, RH-hard dram would be a speciality need and priced accordingly.

And even ECC dram has tolerances and potential for silent corrupting failure. Most aren't perfect.

Re:ECCploit is the first Rowhammer attack to defeat error-co... by userbinator on Friday November 23, 2018 @07:52AM (#18516094)
especially as there's no way to reasonably get ram that isn't susceptible to these failure patterns.

If I remember correctly from the original Rowhammer paper, anything from ~2009 or earlier is not affected. Price for RAM was not particularly high in those times either, and I'd be willing to pay the same (inflation-adjusted) amount today if it meant I didn't have to worry about these problems.

In any other scenario, RH-hard dram would be a speciality need and priced accordingly.

It shouldn't be, because the access pattern could show up incidentally in other ways and cause problems like silent corruption.

Re:ECCploit is the first Rowhammer attack to defeat error-co... by mettamage on Thursday November 22, 2018 @01:41PM (#18511696)
Is it simple? From what I understand it is still not clear how Rowhammer is physically possible. If you don't know how it's possible, then current manufacturers may not know how to create good memory. We don't get everything in physics yet and it's affecting our ability to make good memory chips that are secure.

One possible explanation of how it is possible, the parasitic coupling effect: https://github.com/google/rowhammer-test/blob/master/docs/re...

Re:ECCploit is the first Rowhammer attack to defeat error-co... by brennanpeterson on Thursday November 22, 2018 @02:44PM (#18512091)
It is entirely clear how and why it happens.

It is a trade-off of density and coupling: the closer you get, the higher the parasitics. But if you stay far apart, you have low density (expensive). You also likely need different caching, error correction, and refresh settings.

The concept of parasitic write induced loss is really old in memory. Happens in NAND flash too. It is perhaps surprising that attacks like rowhammer never happened before. Or maybe we never knew?

Re:ECCploit is the first Rowhammer attack to defeat error-co... by amelius on Thursday November 22, 2018 @11:29AM (#18510910)
> Rowhammer is simply defective RAM marketed as usable

Huh? Rowhammer is an access pattern that may reveal certain defects in RAM.