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Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by i_am_proteus on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @12:49PM (#18495823)
This doesn't seem like an inherent flaw in crypocurrencies as much as a feature of an entirely unregulated secondary market (BTC to USD).

Obvious counterpoint: a viable secondary market is a necessary step to adoption of a cryptocurrency.

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @03:28PM (#18497417)
> This doesn't seem like an inherent flaw in crypocurrencies

Unregulated financial markets don’t work. You’re selling something intangible whose benefits are inherently only realisable after an indeterminable amount of time. That encourages fraud. This is a core and fundamental failure of cryptocurrencies.

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by kakarot on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @08:14PM (#18499424)
No, it isn't. Cryptocurrencies in this aspect are the same as the fiat money you and I use today.

The problem was everyone deciding to brand Bitcoin as an investment vehicle instead of as a currency.

Cryptocurrencies are money. The benefits are immediately realizable. If I gave you $5 in exchange for a service worth more than $10, promising that due to market forces that $5 would soon have the buying power of $10, you would laugh in my face and demand the $10 immediately, not later. Yet somehow we decided this was OK to do with crypto.

It has to do with a lack of knowledge, partially due to world governments initially being hostile towards crypto and then indifferent.

Were this technology correctly introduced to society by trusted parties with regulated information, we wouldn't be having this conversation about whether or not cryptocurrency is flawed due to an inherent volatility that comes with low market adoption.

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @08:42PM (#18499571)
> Were this technology correctly introduced to society by trusted parties

...it would be fundamentally outperformed by said trusted party producing a database.

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by mikekchar on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @08:55PM (#18499619)
I wonder if you are actually disagreeing. One of the biggest problems with BTC, in particular, is that it is inherently deflationary. This encourages the thinking that its value will inevitably rise. BTC was originally popular with people who also thought that it was a good idea to buy up and hold gold and silver.

BTC solved an actual financial problem, though. There was a desire to make distributed financial transactions. The most obvious application was to make purchases where moving the money through central, regulated banks was undesirable (e.g. buying drugs or money laundering).

However, there were other applications as well. For my part, although I've never actually spent any BTC (I have a small amount that I actually mined with my CPU, if you can believe it!), the attraction was the possibility to make payments online because as non-permanent resident foreigner, every credit card company refused my business. It's slightly easier to get a credit card now, but I still don't have one.

In other places in the world, the banks are corrupt. My friend's wife had her employer pay her with BTC because she would be sure to actually receive payment. In some places, depending on who you are it is literally impossible to get a bank account. This is a form of marginalisation and discrimination. BTC (or something like it) can solve this problem, presuming you can find a way to convert it to fiat currency.

But the problem here is that despite the potential (or even because of it) the field is littered with fraud. The banks do not want a distributed payment processing system. They want to be in control. Especially in countries where they are abusing the customers, or actively marginalising parts of the population -- it's not an accident. They don't want to fix the "problem".

So the existing regulated industry wants no part of cryptocurrency (at least from the perspective of an actual decentralised payment processing system that removes control from them). This creates the vacuum that attracts the fraud. It also makes the adoption for beneficial transactions (e.g. not drugs and money laundering) very difficult because legitimate vendors have to adhere to the regulated system and cryptocurrency does nothing to make that easier. At best it doesn't make it harder. As many cryptocurrency nouveau-riche can identify with, figuring out how to pay your taxes with the capital gains/losses from FOREX is not trivial.

While I'm hopeful that a distributed payment solution will eventually arise, I think the OP's point that the pains we are experiencing are pretty much inevitable is correct. Though we could make our lives a lot easier if we used an inflationary cryptocurrency (because then you'd be forced to spend it quickly).

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by mancerayder on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:47PM (#18496487)
Wait, what's entirely unregulated about it, if there's a criminal probe? There aren't criminal probes on something that's unregulated; well, at least anything that deals in USD has to deal with U.S. law, regardless of tax haven locale in the world. And Tether claimed to be a USD peg, which means they claimed to own USD, and as an institution that deals in USD they're subject to laws.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by jstanley on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:54PM (#18496559)
> anything that deals in USD has to deal with U.S. law

The act of holding a US dollar bill in your hand doesn't bring you under the jurisdiction of the US government.

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by mancerayder on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @02:30PM (#18496875)
Oh, gosh. The infantile methodology of purposely misreading something so it's literal and thus nonsensical (or comical). I obviously meant financial institutions - which Bitfinex is.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by mikekchar on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @09:05PM (#18499663)
Out of curiosity, is that actually true? I mean Bitfinex is doing business in the US. I thought that was the link to being able to apply US laws on them. Does creating a USD backed security in another country automatically put you under US law? I'm asking because I literally don't understand how that could work.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by mancerayder on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @09:40AM (#18502966)
I'm glad you asked because I had to do a bit of research to come up with some evidence - stuff that got lost in the back of my mind when I read about it a while back. Essentially the US has jurisdiction if it's cleared with USD - and how can it be cleared with USD if there's not some US institution in one place or another. Someone with legal expertise should chime in and correct my primitive babblings. But how about:

https://www.crowell.com/NewsEvents/AlertsNewsletters/all/For...

(NYS has jurisdiction over a foreign entity by virtue of a tie with a bank in the state.)

https://cblr.columbia.edu/the-u-s-jurisdiction-over-transfer...

(An article about jurisdiction of USD transfers.)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16267428

(Another recent HN discussion on this topic.)

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by jstanley on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @11:22AM (#18503763)
> how can it be cleared with USD if there's not some US institution in one place or another

Anybody can setup a little hut where they take in physical US dollars and give out virtual dollars which can be transferred over the internet, ala Tether.

If you operated such a hut outside the jurisdiction of the US, it doesn't matter what laws the US has, they don't apply to you.

This is the point I was trying to make that you dismissed as "infantile": just because you hold US dollars doesn't mean US laws apply to you.

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by mancerayder on Friday November 23, 2018 @02:04PM (#18518274)
If you operated such a hut outside the jurisdiction of the US, it doesn't matter what laws the US has, they don't apply to you.

I don't know what a 'hut' is in this context, but if it's connected to the USD payment system, not only can the long arm of the U.S. try to apply itself, but the said hut can be cut off via pressure on the international banking system. For the former, see the links I sent, which includes a case about New York State applying laws to an overseas entity; for the former, consider Iran and sanctions.

If your hut consists of a person shuffling US currency around with thumbs and rubber bands, well, that's a different story.

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by i_am_proteus on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @03:25PM (#18497378)
A good point, but perhaps we can agree that the mechanisms of the BTC(etc.)-USD exchanges are much less regulated than those of traditional equities/commodities/futures, etc. markets.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by mancerayder on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @06:56PM (#18499005)
For sure. I think this Tether thing will be a poster child to reverse that disparity. And having watched the Tether thing hitting the fan for the past 12 months, including when everyone knew something was up and their suspicious transactions were being posted, I'm disappointed the Law didn't crack down sooner.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by arcticbull on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:09PM (#18496042)
I’d argue that by virtue of being totally decentralized and permissionless, an unregulated secondary market is impossible to prevent and therefore an inherent feature / flaw of cryptocurrency. It’s not a necessary step to adoption, it’s just impossible to stop. It’s also what makes cryptocurrency very difficult to use for anything.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by wmf on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:13PM (#18496097)
USD isn't decentralized or permissionless so regulation should be possible on that side. And the fact that you can't redeem USDT shows that it's kind of working.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by cdiddy2 on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @02:22PM (#18496821)
not sure if this counts, but there is a direct USDT/USD trading pair on Kraken https://trade.kraken.com/markets/kraken/usdt/usd
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by wmf on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @02:26PM (#18496849)
The problem with that market is that you're just handing off USDT to another sucker. There's no official way to take USDT out of circulation when demand goes down.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by cdiddy2 on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @02:50PM (#18497044)
Unless that customer is Kraken itself who may be able to redeem the USDT for USD.

The market cap for tether went down 750 million recently so there appears to be some way to take it out of circulation.

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/tether/

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by pstrateman on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @06:03PM (#18498674)
Well yeah that's the obvious way to make money running tether.

Demand drops and the value of 1.00 USDT drops below $1.00, redeem the USDT yourself and profit on the spread.

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by arcticbull on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:18PM (#18496173)
Very good point, I hadn’t looked at it that way.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by lucozade on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:13PM (#18496104)
It's a flaw in all current cryptocurrencies that they suffer from an opaque, trust-based exchange infrastructure.

I'd argue that it's inherent in the sense that none of them factored that into their model. As such, I'd argue that the models are inherently flawed because a trustless core is fundamentally compromised if you only have a trustful interface to the rest of the world.

To that end, I agree with your basic point: you need an interface to the outside word that has similar properties to the core model. At least, trustless, transparent, auditable. Probably anonymous as well.

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by spookthesunset on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @08:49PM (#18499595)
> To that end, I agree with your basic point: you need an interface to the outside word that has similar properties to the core model. At least, trustless, transparent, auditable. Probably anonymous as well.

Which is impossible because at some point the entire thing needs to interface with humans and human processes -- neither of which is infallible. The entire premise of Bitcoin, Ethereum and "Code Is Law" is broken at the core. They all try to get rid of "trust" by replacing it with computer code but at some point you need to interact with meatspace and meatspace is not logical, and not at all trustful.

In other words, trying to make everything trustless is futile because at the end of the day, you eventually have to trust other people.

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by elwell on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @01:13PM (#18504731)
If you don't need fiat, however, a decentralized exchange using a transparent smart contract is ideal (e.g., IDEX).
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by gibsons77 on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:37PM (#18496374)
You've just described Bisq
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by lucozade on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @02:01PM (#18496635)
> You've just described Bisq

Not really but they're clearly making an attempt in that direction.

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by gibsons77 on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:08PM (#18496035)
There's a decentralized peg to USD called DAI which is backed by ETH as collateral. It's maintained the 1$ USD peg throughout the entire crypto bear market. MakerDAO is quite impressive, and I hope to see it absorb the liquidity away from tether.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by sidko on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:12PM (#18496077)
How do you define "1$ USD peg"? As of right now, the price of DAI is $0.98, 2% off its "peg". Asking as a serious question, since I see this statement a lot.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by bouncycastle on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @03:47PM (#18497555)
Dai is not really a traditional peg, as in the sense that there is someone who always trades on the market to maintain the peg (a liquidity provider like in USDT). It's more of an example of a system that has carefully balanced economic incentives. The fun part is that anybody can mint or destroy DAI, and take advantage of arbitrage opportunities.

For example, if I ever see DAI trading at, say, $1.02 then I would quickly mint some new DAI and sell for USD. Likewise, if DAI is at $0.98 then I would buy it back, then burn what I've minted, collecting a profit.

Also note that with traditional USD pegs, they are not always on parity and hover a few cents from time to time. For example the HKD. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_dollar

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by wmf on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:14PM (#18496113)
I guess if it doesn't drop 10% in one day that's considered "stable" by cryptocurrency standards.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by arcticbull on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:15PM (#18496133)
That’s objectively bad
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by gibsons77 on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:21PM (#18496201)
And also not accurate.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by PeterisP on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @05:18PM (#18498367)
Well, pegs with a defined fluctuation boundary aren't that uncommon, for example, Danish Krona currently is pegged to Euro in such a manner - where it's pegged to within +/- 2.25% of a specific rate.

In essence, if you declare a plausible intent of keeping a rate near 1$ by accepting limitless orders to buy it at 0.98$ and sell it at 1.02$, and can keep that promise, then that's a decent peg.

Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by gibsons77 on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:18PM (#18496177)
That's just due to liquidity. The peg is maintained through arbitrage, so of course if you have low liquidity you're going to have fluctuations around the peg.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by tCfD on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @08:48AM (#18502601)
This is a valid point were it not for the fact that being structurally designed to thwart regulation (by obscuring the link between account and account holder) is the main difference between cryptocurrency and ordinary digital cash, and is a major - if not the principal value proposition of the technology.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by tim333 on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @01:51PM (#18496530)
Whether this is a flaw or not depends on whether tethers are backed 1:1 by USD deposits as advertised. If so there's not much wrong apart from maybe money laundering. If not it's fraud in most people's books.
Re:Bitcoin-Rigging Criminal Probe Focused on Tie to Tether by DINKDINK on Tuesday November 20, 2018 @02:07PM (#18496681)
>entirely unregulated secondary market

Bitcoin to USD exchanges are incredibly regulated. AML/KYC/SAR are all required by many governments.