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Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by Droobfest on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:30AM (#18442207)
> "If the racists think the candidate is a racist, the candidate is probably a racist"

I honestly think ideas like this are one of the most problematic beliefs in the current political discourse. This type of thinking only means we look less and less at the merits of someone's arguments and more and more at the tribe they associate with, or even worse the tribe that chooses to associate with them.

We have absolutely no control over these associations. If some nutjob chooses to support my cause does that somehow means my arguments are less valid?

Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by devonkim on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:48AM (#18442415)
You’re supposed to soundly distance yourself from them in very unequivocally language and NOT TAKE THEIR MONEY. For my consistency, I dislike politicians of any sort that take corporate donor money. I dislike money being such an important factor in politics these days instead of oh.... how candidates actually vote. I can’t tell what a candidate actually believes when things came down to it versus what their constituents would do. I know that Joe Biden has said before that while he personally doesn’t believe in abortion he believes his constituents want the freedom / choice in their communities. This is tricky. It gets much more clear-cut for me when the only possible motivations are purely based around corporate interests (“jobs” are almost a code word for corporate interests, heck even the GOP pivoted to using “job creator” instead of using corporations around the Romney-Obama election period).
Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by bobcostas55 on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @01:15PM (#18443250)
>I dislike money being such an important factor in politics these days instead of oh.... how candidates actually vote.

There's a large empirical literature on the issue and the conclusion is that money is more or less irrelevant in politics. Political campaigns are entirely ineffective.

The Minimal Persuasive Effects of Campaign Contact in General Elections: Evidence from 49 Field Experiments [0]

"First, a systematic meta-analysis of 40 field experiments estimates an average effect of zero in general elections. Second, we present nine original field experiments that increase the statistical evidence in the literature about the persuasive effects of personal contact 10-fold. These experiments’ average effect is also zero."

Does Money Buy Votes? The Case of Self-Financed Gubernatorial Candidates, 1998–2008 [1]

"The apparent effect of spending on votes is severely inflated by omitted variable bias: the best candidates also happen to be the best fundraisers. [...] self-financed spending has no statistical effect on election results"

[0] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3042867

[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11109-012-9193-1

Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by yesenadam on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @03:23PM (#18444552)
Surprisingly, neither of those papers appear to have anything to do with your point that "money is more or less irrelevant in politics". The first seems about personal contact, the second whether where the money came from made any difference, not whether they had any.
Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by ArchTypical on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @03:09PM (#18444434)
When there's no candidate, it's still money that wins initiatives in the western USA. I don't care what that particular study concluded over 40 races of self-financed Gov candidates because it's not compelling. Existing studies of interest that acknowledge definitive correlation only differ in how to measure the degree and where diminishing returns occur.

> There's a large empirical literature on the issue and the conclusion is that money is more or less irrelevant in politics.

That's simply nonsense.

Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by devonkim on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @05:13PM (#18445425)
Not everything that happens in law is done through voting though and thus the legislation and lobbying done is studied. I remember someone publishing some results showing that for as little as $50k to a politician’s campaign you can get a return on investment many times over depending upon your industry. In fact, I’d argue the most important things that happen in government is what we do not get to vote on, which is part of why voting is so important - the elected officials fill in the differential.
Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by bobcostas55 on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:31AM (#18449110)
About that..

"We find no evidence that corporations benefit from electing their favored candidate, and we can statistically reject effect sizes greater than 0.4 percent of firm value. Contrary to the concerns of many observers, corporate campaign contributions do not appear to buy significant political favors."

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/spenkuch/researc...

Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by beat on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:53AM (#18442460)
Joe Biden's position is a good example of what I'm talking about. He can say "personally opposed", but the pro-choice people believe he's pro-choice anyway, and the pro-life people also believe he's pro-choice anyway. The language isn't fooling anyone.
Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by jadell on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @02:21PM (#18443953)
He is pro-choice, and he's not trying to fool anyone. He believe people should have the right to make the decision for themselves whether or not to have an abortion. For himself, he's made the decision he wouldn't want his partner to have one. There's nothing inconsistent or nefarious in that.

I find that kind of honesty refreshing in a politician, when they can set aside their own personal beliefs and actually represent the people who elected them.

Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by roenxi on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @03:08PM (#18444417)
> and NOT TAKE THEIR MONEY

So by logical extension, a highly virtuous person would ... donate money to racist causes? Because that is the exact opposite of taking their donations.

There is always going to be one politician who has policies that are more racist-friendly than the other. Targeting specific groups for exclusion from the political process, even at the social level, is a recipe for disaster. We want less of that, not more.

At most, ask for transparency about where the donations are sourced from so the polity can talk about it.

Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by Erem on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @03:13AM (#18448355)
I think devonkim meant that politicians DO in fact have control over which deplorable supporters they get associated with in the public eye -- the politicians who accept donations from racist organizations are the racist politicians.
Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by roenxi on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @04:32PM (#18454188)
Firstly, that is not what devonkim said, so he probably doesn't mean that. Secondly, that is also wrong.

Trump is a good example of this sort of thing - a reporter just has to look at him sideways to get told that black unemployment is at a record low, and over the last 2 years he's pulled a couple of pro-black political stunts. About half the media will still call him a racist, because he has _no_ control over who he gets associated with.

I expect this point would come up in a debate so I'll address it - a 'Muslim travel ban' is only racist to someone who is very confused about what 'race' means. Given the pain Bush & Obama have delivered to the Middle East in particular, and the Muslim world in general, this is a distasteful but certainly not inconsistent choice for US foreign policy.

> politicians who accept donations from racist organizations are the racist politicians.

Maybe in the abstract, but who are there "racist organizations" that are making political donations to influence politicans? Assuming we are still talking US politics, the last scandal [0] involving the KKK (only racist organisation I know of) was in 1991! Everything since is literally throwaway one-line comments of no real significance.

I don't think racist organisations are active in politics, they'd make candidates unelectable.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_United_States_politi...

Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by devonkim on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @11:14AM (#18450950)
I didn’t downvote you because it makes sense if you believe taking money from organizations you dislike would hurt them. Not going to address whether it’s helpful or not because I have no basis to say one way or the other.

The issue is that such a model is based purely on economic grounds rather than on messaging and rhetoric. Accepting money usually implies a form of condonation of the donor because the implication is that you want their assistance. If I take money from the US Nazi party and sue them back (for... something) with said money that’d be complicated but this has happened rarely enough that popular media appears to never show it. This isn’t like a corporate entity like Burger King donating money to a candidate. But it would sure be funny if Burger King donated money to PETA right?

On the flip side, refusing money is usually assumed as a form of demonstration of principle that is even stronger the lesser your wealth; that even if you are poor and destitute (as if our politicians are, yeah I know) you would rather not accept money from someone you disagree with. If a homeless person returns a large sum of money, that makes news (and an ironically higher-compensation Kickstarter / gofundme for the refuser but historically not so). Politicians and powerful people in general work off networks and money as their careers so taking money from someone when you have so much wealth / fame already carries a lot of weight there as well.

Come to think of it, I think I saw someone accept a donation and immediately donate the money to a diametrically opposed organization. But that’s rare enough that it becomes a headline is my point.

Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by beat on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:43AM (#18442353)
Nutjobs agreeing with someone doesn't mean they're wrong, but it's strong evidence they might be wrong. I mean, why are the nutjobs agreeing? That's worth thinking about.

This is especially important because clever politicians can say things that seem reasonable on the surface, but aren't really.

What I'm talking about here is really an application of the Pareto Principle, the 80/20 rule. Support of nutjobs is 80% likely to be evidence of nutty ideas.

Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by scottlocklin on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @06:11PM (#18445778)
Far right nutjobs (scarequote kind and real ones) have consistently been against US involvement in middle eastern wars. One of the ways the oligarchy works is associating things they don't like, aka "fewer dumb wars" with generally unpopular ideas.
Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by abnry on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @12:55PM (#18443055)
If the reasoning skills of nutjobs are already suspect, you can't take as trustworthy their endorsements.
Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by sheepmullet on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @04:49PM (#18445227)
> Nutjobs agreeing with someone doesn't mean they're wrong, but it's strong evidence they might be wrong

It doesn’t really work well for politics - it’s clear nutjobs support both major parties here in the US.

Re:People are “consistently inconsistent” in reasoning about... by a1369209993 on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @05:41PM (#18445611)
That's not a very convincing counterargument given that both parties seem to enthusiastically support things like corporate welfare, bogus patents, copyright and other censorship, warrentless surveilance and other domestic spying, private citizens being less well armed than goverment thugs, various horrendous dysfunctions of the health care system, and conditional welfare that cuts people off if they make any progress toward climbing out of poverty, and oppose things like nuclear power, basic income, common carriage requirements for ISPs and gigasites like facebook and google, and crackdowns on techinically-not-lying in contracts and advertisement.