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Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by callalex on Thursday November 08, 2018 @08:31PM (#18411710)
If we're going to make fun of companies leading with press releases before actual product, we can't ignore the fact that Tesla has been pretending they can make a $35k car, when it has now been several years and their cars are nearly twice as much as that for the cheapest model.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by gpm on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:01PM (#18411840)
I mean, they are supply constrained at the current price point. Even if they could hit the $35k price point, why do so when it just means taking in less money?

Judging by Elon's tweets, they do expect to be able to produce cars for that price in the near future. Whether or not they will sell them near the cost of production probably just depends on demand vs supply.

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by cmrdporcupine on Friday November 09, 2018 @09:21AM (#18414502)
Sure, good point, why do so? But then why put out press releases and marketing material that imply that Tesla has performed the miracle of creating an "affordable" (well, $35k USD is still beyond 90% of people's pricepoint in reality) car for the masses?

They've done no such thing. They've made another vehicle to compete with BMW, Audi, and Mercedes. Which is fine, but let's call it what it is. There is no such thing as a $35k Model 3, and it could still be many years before we see one.

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by rohit2412 on Friday November 09, 2018 @08:01PM (#18419300)
I don't think Elon musk or Tesla fans will ever say that.

Truth is, Tesla sells well. Chevy bolt does not sell that well. And one of the major reason Tesla sells so well (50k model3 at 50k$ in a quarter) is because of the futuristic hype and image. So they will never admit that Tesla makes just another premium car, or that autopilot is just another driver assistance program.

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by spacenick88 on Friday November 09, 2018 @01:57PM (#18416882)
Their currently cheapest model is $45k so while it's true that they aren't there yet, they're closing in. And I'd say building $45k vehicles today is much closer to $35k than building an eGolf with 200 km range today and claiming that you will build $25k in 2020.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by mikekij on Thursday November 08, 2018 @08:34PM (#18411728)
Isn’t their cheapest model now $45k?
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by callalex on Thursday November 08, 2018 @08:36PM (#18411741)
You can "preorder" it and give them that much money, but they will then follow up with you and tell you that you won't get your car unless you buy more upgrades to push yourself further up in the backlog. So realistically, you can't buy a car at that price.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by martythemaniak on Thursday November 08, 2018 @10:29PM (#18412143)
I think you're confusing the SR with the MR. People have already taken deliveries of their $45k MRs.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/mid-range-waiting-ro...

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by InTheArena on Thursday November 08, 2018 @08:57PM (#18411827)
Tesla has been upfront about saying they are still looking at next year for the 35k version. At now point, will they (or have they) told anyone that they won't get the car unless you buy the mid-range or the long range versions. I was a day one reservation holder, and have never received such a message.

And also, you can't pre-order it - you can put the same deposit down, if you want, as everyone else - that's 1k, and can apply that to a LR/MR and in the future SR.

Also worth noting, the MR and the LR have different inverters, with the MR sharing the same inverter as the SR.

Winter is coming ;-)

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by hndamien on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:14PM (#18411885)
They weren't really upfront about this when they were taking preorders in 2016. And I say this as a Model 3 reservation holder, Model S owner and TSLA shareholder.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by InTheArena on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:52PM (#18412023)
Which is a true statement. It's the above that isn't.

At this point, no one is locked in on that deposit. Anyone can cancel at any time - until you click purchase with a additional payment for the car, which is only after the car is available for purchase.

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by hndamien on Friday November 09, 2018 @08:25AM (#18414140)
Nothing you have said is untrue, they were just a little misleading with timelines on day one. I'm also a day one reservation holder (in Australia so timelines were different). They never lied, but the have stretched the truth with the occasional weasel words. I'm forgiving since they have never lied, but I'd appreciate them being a little more accurate with information.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by hndamien on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:13PM (#18411879)
It is $35k plus time. The old time is money trick.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by TulliusCicero on Friday November 09, 2018 @06:23AM (#18413700)
Fair enough, but they're still selling a crapton of Model 3's, and they're now one of the biggest luxury car companies in the US, purely off of electrics.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by stupidbird on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:05PM (#18411852)
All of Elon Musk's businesses rely on government subsidies.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by api on Thursday November 08, 2018 @10:14PM (#18412089)
Good. Name one major technological innovation that was not largely or wholly a product of government subsidies. The only ones I can think of were out of Bell Labs and Bell was a government backed monopoly so they don't really count. They were so profitable and protected they could spend like a government.

Nothing new is ever profitable until you get past the early prototype and scaling stages. For big capital intensive stuff only government historically has pockets deep enough to burn enough money to get big stuff off the ground (sometimes literally). Rockets, jet engines, microprocessors, huge scale power grids, the Internet, genomics, supercomputing, nuclear power, solar power, the list goes on and on.

Private investors just have too low a risk tolerance and too short a time horizon.

I actually wish this weren't so, but it is so.

It's also terribly hypocritical to bash Elon for taking government contracts when everyone does it. Why do you think Amazon's HQ2 is going to be in the DC area?

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by stupidbird on Thursday November 08, 2018 @10:36PM (#18412160)
how am I personally benefitting from Elon Musk being a billionaire, taxpayer dollars shouldn't be reaching his pockets at that volume (meanwhile he prevents his employees from unionizing and suppresses injury reports at the cost of employee health...)
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by brennankreiman on Thursday November 08, 2018 @10:59PM (#18412236)
To be fair Musk was a billionaire before Tesla, and considering a company like fox Conn getting 3 billion or $230,000 a job to make a plant in Wisconsin, Tesla getting a subsidy is par for the course.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by api on Thursday November 08, 2018 @11:13PM (#18412277)
Tesla proved the EV market and made EVs sexy and cool, which is helping tip EVs into the mass market. Without Tesla you wouldn't see BMW, Mercedes, VW, Nissan, etc. making mass market and luxury EVs. They'd be making no EVs at all or awful "compliance cars" designed to be undesirable. (The traditional auto industry is full of ICE heads and hates EVs. They have to be dragged kicking and screaming.)

If EVs weren't tipping we'd still be talking about how peak oil (the depletion of easy/cheap oil) means the end of modern transportation.

Tesla didn't make Musk a billionaire. The PayPal acquisition did that.

Does Tesla even still get subsidies? They got that DOE loan years ago but they paid it back and lots of other auto makers got government loans back then too. Or are you referring to EV tax credits? In that case those are also subsidizing Nissan, BMW, GM, and any other company selling a mass market EV.

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by fosco on Friday November 09, 2018 @10:52AM (#18415276)
this reminds of investments in research and I'm quoting from somewhere but cannot locate at the moment...

  If Balmer hadn't studied spectral lines, Planck may not have proposed the quantum. Then Bohr may
 not have conceived his model of the atom, which means Heisenberg and Schrödinger wouldn't have
 developed their formulations of quantum mechanics. That would have left Bloch without the tools he
 needed to understand the nature of conduction in metals, and then how would Schottky have figured
 out semiconductors? It's hard to imagine, then, how Bardeen, Brattain, and Schockley would have
 developed transistors. And without transistors, Noyce and Kilbey couldn't have produced integrated
 circuits.

  Almost every major technological advance of the 20th and 21st centuries originated with basic
 research that presented no obvious or immediate economic benefit. That means no profit motive, and
 hence no reason for the private sector to adequately fund it. Basic research isn't a waste of tax
 dollars; it's a more reliable long-term investment than anything else in the Federal government's
 portfolio.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by stupidbird on Friday November 09, 2018 @11:55AM (#18415836)
You're comparing scientific research to for-profit industry.

Solar City, Tesla, The Boring Company, and Space X aren't releasing public research, it's all private IP and manufacturing.

You literally could not benefit from their progress if you wanted to. You'd be sued. Their employees can't even work in related industries due to somewhat spurious non-competes.

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by fosco on Friday November 09, 2018 @12:02PM (#18415892)
everyone benefits from Tesla's progress [0], they may be an outlier but I think they are leading the way. More importantly, the progress helps society as a whole. I see their progress as directly benefiting every human and the planet.

you have changed your original comment a few times so it is difficult to respond to, but I'm not sure large tech companies would succeed with unions, people need to educate themselves and learn how to negotiate in highly skilled areas, I look at a local railroad company near me that employs a lot of people and does not invest money in improvements because they cannot afford due to how the union has negotiated, it has stopped innovation entirely. Engineers are still learning light switches, this should be completely automated so we stop having mistakes of train engineers texting people and causing accidents... what a shameful loss of life.

[0] https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by stupidbird on Friday November 09, 2018 @12:45PM (#18416277)
I have not changed my original comment in over 12 hours.

Their progress is not available for public use, period. Go ahead, try to use any technology developed by Tesla and see what happens. They're simply popularizing their own products.

American corporations have done great work convincing you that unions are a bad thing. You're going as far as blaming employees for Tesla-specific safety reporting issues. https://www.revealnews.org/article/tesla-says-its-factory-is...

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by fsloth on Friday November 09, 2018 @07:06AM (#18413850)
"how am I personally benefitting from Elon Musk being a billionaire, taxpayer dollars shouldn't be reaching his pockets at that volume"

The whole point of subsidy is to encourage business in a specific area. It would sound like it's working as intended, encouraging business and all.

Would you be happier if the subsidies were completely wasted on a non-viable business?

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by stupidbird on Friday November 09, 2018 @11:58AM (#18415863)
It's a business that exploits workers. We've seen this time and time again with Tesla.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by anonymfus on Friday November 09, 2018 @07:52AM (#18413998)
No, the obvious alternative is for government to invest these money directly into production and own the profits.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by Cthulhu_ on Friday November 09, 2018 @07:02AM (#18413839)
Most major car manufacturers in the US received hundreds of millions of government money to not go bankrupt in the aftermath of the 2008 crisis; Tesla was not one of them.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by dsfyu404ed on Friday November 09, 2018 @08:18AM (#18414114)
How is that relevant?

Tesla was not and is not a major automaker. Their market cap may be large but they don't employ all that many people or ship all that many cars (so less people upstream are dependent on them) Tesla was founded in 2008. They would not have been eligible for loans the .gov gave to GM/Chrysler. That would have been like a small town bank asking to be bailed out along with the wall street banks.

Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by imglorp on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:25PM (#18411933)
I am totally okay with these kinds of subsidies, the ones that benefit society at large. There's plenty that aren't.
Re:VW plans to sell electric Tesla rival for less than $23K:... by SmellyGeekBoy on Friday November 09, 2018 @07:06AM (#18413851)
As do fossil fuels and lots of other things. What's your point?