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Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by umeshunni on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @07:56PM (#18403591)
It's a classic chicken and egg problem.

Companies don't want to establish new offices in cities where they cannot attract new talent or there isn't a large existing base of talent. This limits large new offices to large metro areas (5M+ people)

People don't want to relocate to cities where there aren't multiple job possibilities - you lose your job/hate it and don't want to have to relocate to find a new job or you want to move but your spouse can't find a job there because their industry isn't well represented there.

This leads to a reinforcement cycle where new jobs are created in a city, people flock there, found the next generation of companies, new jobs, more people fleeing less attractive cities and so on...

Things that can happen that could break this cycle include - new industries emerging (like tech in the 90s), poor governance, infrastructure in an area forcing companies to find alternatives (like bay area right now), new skills coming into demand and companies establishing offices to take advantage of that (e.g. Pittsburg emerging as an AI hub, Seattle for 'cloud' skills etc)

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by kamaal on Thursday November 08, 2018 @06:56AM (#18405677)
>>Companies don't want to establish new offices in cities where they cannot attract new talent or there isn't a large existing base of talent.

Bangalore had this problem in the 80's and 90's. The way you beat is, surprising simple.

You just start building colleges and other institutions and make it cheap and easy to study there.

All of a sudden you have a massive pool of young, and hungry people. Then you do things like tax subsidies, and land grants.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by throwawaymath on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:08AM (#18406304)
I hate to be that guy, but if it’s this simple why hasn’t it been done?

And anticipating a specific class of answer: is it always political deadlock in America, or is there something more fundamental that would prevent this from working?

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by redblacktree on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:44AM (#18406532)
To some extent, it has been done. There are a lot of great public institutions of higher education throughout the country. I live in Indianapolis. It's not exactly an economic wasteland.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by NeedMoreTea on Thursday November 08, 2018 @02:34AM (#18404865)
> Companies don't want to establish new offices in cities where they cannot attract new talent or there isn't a large existing base of talent

This seems especially silly. There are almost limitless people who would like to get one of the FAANG co's on their CV. They'd gladly relocate and benefit from reasonable property prices for a year or three. Google or Netlix are hardly going to struggle to attract talent if they decide to open an office in some rural backwater.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by bilbo0s on Thursday November 08, 2018 @02:44AM (#18404900)
I don't know man?

You'd be surprised how attached people are to their spouses or partners. Doesn't matter how badly you want to work at Google, if your spouse is an IP attorney or VP at an academic hospital, as a family you just can't go moving to the middle of nowhere. It's not ALL about being able to work at Google. There's a lot more going on in making these decisions. (At least there is for the type of people that Google would be interested in.)

Much better to be in that NYC-Boston-DC corridor where high powered opportunities abound in multiple sectors. Or SF. Or Chicago. Etc. But trying to move a lot of these types of couples to, say, Lincoln Nebraska, is just asking for trouble. The spouses or partners are definitely not going to go for that.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by mattkrause on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:59AM (#18406629)
This!

I’m sure Google (etc) could lure a lot of young, single folks out to the hinterlands for a year or two, but retention and recruiting further up the ladder would be awful.

Universities in the US, which—for historical reasons-are often located in rural areas, have similar problems. They solve this through “spousal hires.” This can range from merely coordinating interviews and offers across departments [0] to creating entirely new positions, or even tenure lines, for a rockstar’s spouse.

This can work relatively well for universities, but I’ve never heard of companies doing anything similar. I wonder if you could even get a set of companies to agree to preferentially hire their employees’ spouses, so there’s a more diverse set of options.

[0] The university often kicks in some money so that both departments will be happy with (say) their number three picks, instead of history hiring an unattached rockstar and chemistry getting no one.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by screye on Thursday November 08, 2018 @07:16PM (#18411306)
> spousal hires

Happened to a prof in my university just this year. Had offers from top universities & labs for tenure in CS, but stayed in our rural college town because of his SO.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by C1sc0cat on Thursday November 08, 2018 @03:22AM (#18405013)
And also for those with kids you have to think about them i.e. what opportunities will they have living in this area when they leave school.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by closeparen on Thursday November 08, 2018 @03:48AM (#18405123)
Why would a kid stay in the same area after leaving school? That was categorically out of the question for my graduating classes.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by mac01021 on Thursday November 08, 2018 @07:06AM (#18405711)
To remain near family?

To help shape the future of the community that rasied them?

What was deal with your class? You lived in the middle of knowhere and the only option would have been farming or mining coal or something?

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by malmsteen on Thursday November 08, 2018 @10:29AM (#18406907)
Sense of adventure / lower familial pressure.

You can always come back to "shape the community" (so american ^^) later

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by mac01021 on Thursday November 08, 2018 @02:41PM (#18409263)
Europeans, Asians, etc don't see themselves as an influence on the place they live?
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by barry-cotter on Thursday November 08, 2018 @07:56AM (#18405904)
It’s a social class thing. Most Americans live very near where they grew up.

www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/387736/

> Of all respondents, about 54 percent said that they lived in close proximity to where they grew up.

nypost.com/2018/01/11/a-shocking-number-of-americans-never-leave-home/amp/

> 11 percent of survey respondents have never traveled outside of the state where they were born.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by closeparen on Thursday November 08, 2018 @12:07PM (#18407786)
I agree. But if you’re a Google employee, you and your offspring are in the social class that can afford to move wherever makes sense.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by ionised on Thursday November 08, 2018 @04:14AM (#18405210)
Why?
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by closeparen on Thursday November 08, 2018 @11:58AM (#18407697)
You go to the best college you can get into, wherever it is, and then to the best job you can get, wherever that is. Our city was okay, but our school system and community values were not calibrated to produce contentment with mediocrity.

You might pass on opportunities for social stability reasons in middle age, but as a 22-year-old you jump without hesitation.

People sometimes migrate back when their own kids are school-aged.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by jswizzy on Thursday November 08, 2018 @08:48AM (#18406187)
Because people are attached to their family and friends and also most don't realize that any able body person with an IQ of 100 and a decent work ethic could easily make six digits if they relocated to the right area.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by ben_w on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:41AM (#18406510)
Where could any randomly selected person from the upper 50% of the population by IQ move and earn >$100,000? Even with your caveats, though at that pay I do wonder why “able bodied” is important.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by ghaff on Thursday November 08, 2018 @08:23AM (#18406044)
Right out of school? Maybe. My first job, I did indeed not really consider location at all. And I would not have lived in the city I took the job long term and moved when I left the job after 3 years, albeit to go back to school which had been more or less my plan from the beginning in any case.

In addition to the reasons you give, there's also whether you like a place. I might (or might not) be willing to make some tradeoffs for a locale that's particularly desirable for recreational opportunities and so forth. But not for an exercise in creating a new city, revitalizing one, etc.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by NeedMoreTea on Thursday November 08, 2018 @03:36AM (#18405061)
That's now a small minority of a minority. It's more usual for just one partner to have the especially high powered career. Even more so after starting a family.

For those that have both then sure, it's more nuanced and may come down to which of the two has the better future chances, or to make different decisions. Most potential workers will not be in that situation at all.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by sumedh on Thursday November 08, 2018 @04:38AM (#18405289)
> It's more usual for just one partner to have the especially high powered career. Even more so after starting a family.

I believe the few high profile people who actually make the big decisions will usually have a partner who has a high profile career as well. Those key people wont move because their partner wont move.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by lallysingh on Thursday November 08, 2018 @05:56AM (#18405499)
I don't know about that. The two most common spouse occupations, of people I knew at Google in NYC, were lawyer and some sort of financier. Often (more than a few of those I knew) the spouse made more money and Google was effectively daycare for the other.

And in hotbeds like NYC, with the opportunities all over town, there's little career reason to go somewhere else. If Google left NYC, they'd lose most of their engineering team to other tech firms in the city.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by ghaff on Thursday November 08, 2018 @08:25AM (#18406055)
The draw of NYC is also at least somewhat unique. I went to grad school with a lot of NY natives. A lot of them really cannot imagine living anyplace else. What? You can't do X at 3am? Inconceivable.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by throwawaymath on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:06AM (#18406297)
As someone who lives in New York City, that rings true to me. I remember being taken aback the first time I visited a smaller town and heard the ice cream shop was closed at 8 pm on a Sunday. It took a period of adjustment before I realized I was the odd one :)
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by TulliusCicero on Thursday November 08, 2018 @07:30AM (#18405794)
No there aren't. It's the kind of move that sounds highly desirable until you actually start considering it seriously. Notably: what happens when you get tired of your current work, or you get laid off, or something else comes in between you and your current company? If there are no comparable companies around the area, you're stuck accepting shittier work, or uprooting your life.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by neil_s on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:56AM (#18406610)
I relocated from the UK to California and then Zurich to work at Google. I wouldn't have taken the offer if they said - "you can only work at Google if you agree to work in Alabama". Once you're in Google, it's pretty easy to move around between offices, and yet people aren't tripping over themselves to move to small offices in small cities with a small range of projects to work in.

Don't underestimate the power of network effects and critical mass. The people good enough to get into FAANG also have the abundance of options to specify where they'd like to live and work.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by amyjess on Thursday November 08, 2018 @10:20AM (#18406815)
> Companies don't want to establish new offices in cities where they cannot attract new talent or there isn't a large existing base of talent. This limits large new offices to large metro areas (5M+ people)

I wish more companies would do what TI did.

TI set up their headquarters in Richardson, TX, where there were very few people with any engineering background. So they opened their own university in order to farm talent, and once it got large enough, they had the state take it over from them. It became the University of Texas at Dallas, and it's now probably the most important university in the southwest for engineering and CS (I've heard the phrase "MIT of the southwest" before, but I don't want to call it that because I went to UTD and that's a bit of an exaggeration).

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by nostrademons on Thursday November 08, 2018 @03:25AM (#18405019)
"Things that can happen that could break this cycle include"

Also: universities, new natural resource discoveries, natural disasters, different regulatory environments, developments in transportation.

I have a hunch that the North Coast of Canada is going to become a huge boom town within my lifetime, but it's likely to take a couple decades, and I don't yet know where the major cities will be. Am tempted to take a Northwest Passage cruise to find out, though.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by chupasaurus on Thursday November 08, 2018 @04:35AM (#18405278)
I live at 55°N for 25 years and counting, as well as some time in a comparable climate (St. Petersburg), the wombo combo of very low temperatures in winter and constantly high humidity (temperatures are feeling way colder than with <50% humidity) with addition of low sunshine hours is not attractive one.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by nostrademons on Thursday November 08, 2018 @01:16PM (#18408437)
I'm just assuming that global warming is going to be as bad or worse than current predictions and that the effect will be felt even more severely at high latitudes. If the arctic sea ice all melts the Arctic Circle may be the new Northern Europe. 20,000 years ago New England was all under glaciers, while now it's a pretty reasonable place to live.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by mac01021 on Thursday November 08, 2018 @06:59AM (#18405687)
What would have to happen for one of these giant companies to start hiring remote employees?
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by dsr_ on Thursday November 08, 2018 @07:18AM (#18405747)
It's not that they don't hire remote employees. Most of them do.

It's that a high-level remote employee at a physical-first company is at a major political disadvantage compared to their onsite peers.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by mac01021 on Thursday November 08, 2018 @07:27AM (#18405785)
Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough, but I've never seen an opening for a remote SWE job for any of FAANG.

If they did, they could pay 75% of what I'm told they do and still be far and away the most appealing employer for talented engineers in most places.

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by throwawaymath on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:14AM (#18406341)
I recently received an offer from Apple for a remote software engineering role. Amazon will also hire remote employees for certain teams in AWS. And I’m aware of both Facebook and Google hiring remote employees (or allowing employees to become fully remote) if they’re excellent and the alternative is losing them.

It’s not an explicit policy and they don’t actively encourage it. But they’ll make it work for the right person - I agree though, don’t go into it thinking you’ll be remote. If you want to work remotely for very high compensation (close to FAANG but not exactly competitive), comsider working at a second tier public tech company like Salesforce or a strong unicorn like Stripe (both of which explicitly support it).

Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by TulliusCicero on Thursday November 08, 2018 @07:28AM (#18405787)
Something big. Running a huge organization effectively is already really hard -- just look at how many companies do a terrible job of it -- and having a large percentage of WFH employees would just increase the difficulty even further.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by dhd415 on Thursday November 08, 2018 @08:10AM (#18405978)
I've encountered some well-run and successful companies that hire remote employees and the two things that seem to be common to them is that they're remote-first and remote-first from day one. Transitioning into either of those seems a bridge too far for most companies.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by givinguflac on Thursday November 08, 2018 @07:19AM (#18405751)
Older people with outdated visions of “butts in seats” need to stop running things.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by throwawaymath on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:17AM (#18406369)
That’s an unfair characterization. A lot of people, myself included, do not enjoy remote work. I did it for years and I’m over it. You might consider that there are valid argumemts both for and against working remotely.
Re:Google Plans Large New York City Expansion by gxigzigxigxi on Thursday November 08, 2018 @07:47AM (#18405855)
I wouldn’t consider myself an “older person” with “outdated visions.” But I still wouldn’t want to work with or be managed by someone working remotely.