News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by jstimpfle on Monday November 05, 2018 @08:19AM (#18382065)
Look up the definition of "simple".

How exactly do you distinguish "exceptional" from "non-exceptional"?

Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by gwright on Monday November 05, 2018 @08:53AM (#18382289)
The best description of exceptions that I've seen is Bertrand Meyer's exposition of them in _Object Oriented Software Construction_.

His definition depends on the notion of Design by Contract. An exception is an event that causes a function/method to fail because it is unable to satisfy its contract. The caller is then responsible for cleaning things up (so it can satisfy its contract) or it also triggers an exception resulting it its failure.

In the context of Design by Contract, the list of things that can cause an exception include:

  * hardware/OS errors
  * calling a method on a null reference
  * calling a method that itself fails
  * discovering a pre-condition isn't true
  * discovering that a post-condition isn't true
  * discovering that a class-invariant isn't true
  * loop invariant failure or lack of progress
  * assertion failures
  * explicit triggering of an exception
I highly recommend Object Oriented Software Construction.
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by vram22 on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:51AM (#18383230)
>I highly recommend Object Oriented Software Construction.

I do, too. I had read most of the book [1] some years ago. It is really good. But readers should know that they need to be ready to put in enough time to read, understand and digest it, not just because it is a thick book, although it is that, but because, true to Bertrand Meyer's style, it is detailed, systematic, thorough, etc. It's not one of those books where you can read it in a few days and then start applying its stuff to your work, nor is it for casual programmers who are only into the field to make some quick bucks.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-Oriented_Software_Const...

BTW, the book may have an Easter egg in it.

Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by gnoack on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:30AM (#18382523)
I've written an article on error handling some point and ended up with: "An error is when the program is operating outside the intended path of execution."

What counts as intended is a question of definition, but in concrete examples of local reasoning within a function this question is usually easier to answer. Thinking about it in terms of (explicit or implicit) contracts, like Bertrand Meyer, sounds like a smart idea.

https://blog.gnoack.org/post/error_handling/

Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by jstimpfle on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:02AM (#18382789)
> Warning: Textual logging is not an error handling strategy. Logs are not meant for machine consumption so it’s hard to have automated monitoring based on them.

I'd beg to disagree.

As for the general statement of your post, I like how you're talking about stakeholders and (specification) bounds but I don't think it's an actionable viewpoint. The idea of "Bubbling up errors" inside a program is caught in the software reuse mindset but it's not possible to take action on encountering a true error (here "true" means "outside specifiation"). That's because the state of your whole program is undefined after the encounter. Which means that the best you can do is to call abort() and hope that the program will end with some info for debugging.

(Unless we are talking about a VM or sandboxed code, in which case again you could just call some equivalent of abort() from the code inside and "catch" that in the host code and restart the VM or something).

Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by gnoack on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:21PM (#18386084)
Thanks for the feedback. :)

To clarify, in the context of the article, "making errors observable from the outside" is not meant at the per-function level, but meant at the level of the whole program, which includes abort(). I should improve the wording there.

abort() is perfectly legitimate if you can't recover within the same process. It's not at odds with routing to the right stakeholder, as long as the parent process catches the crash and does appropriate error handling (e.g. "Send a crash report" dialogs or other watchdogs).

Regarding textual logging, I'm not sure exactly which part you disagree with. :) I'm aware that people commonly write regex-based extractors, and I've done the same, but having the choice I'd always go for a more schema-ful error reporting channel. That's more lightweight both for reading and for writing it, and avoids a whole class of regex bugs.

Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by jstimpfle on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:31AM (#18390050)
OK I had probably skimmed too much but now I think we're just talking about different things here. I like your post, so let's give it another chance: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18390030 :-)

Regarding textual logging, I think it works wonderfully and I don't think it's at odds with schema-ful reporting. One good way is to include error codes. Informal messages are at least as important. They are ergonomic to humans and their meanings are easy to look up with a web search.

Of course textual logging can always be supported by other means, like crash dumps.

Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by gbear605 on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:23AM (#18382958)
In Java, your true error dichotomy is done using checked versus unchecked exceptions. Checked exceptions can usually be handled while unchecked exceptions usually can’t be, so they aren’t usually caught and instead just bubble all the way up.
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by jstimpfle on Monday November 05, 2018 @08:59AM (#18382323)
I think this is a hair-splitting distinction and it does not work reliably. Sorry. Things that truly "cannot" happen => you do not know how to recover => you terminate the program. That's it.
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by gwright on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:21AM (#18382463)
That is why the definition is recursive. If every failure triggers a new exception all the way up the call stack, then your program fails.
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by jstimpfle on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:24AM (#18382478)
Yeah, so what was the point to begin with?
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by gwright on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:32AM (#18382537)
Do you understand Design By Contract? That is the theory that provides the distinction between a function/method finishing with success or with failure. The notion of contract is what distinguishes an exception from a glorified GOTO.
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by gwright on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:07PM (#18387156)
In re-reading, my response comes across as much more flippant than I intended. I was just trying to re-emphasize that the definition of an exception is an integral component of Meyer's design by contract methodology and not a stand alone concept.
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by beaconstudios on Monday November 05, 2018 @08:28AM (#18382136)
> Look up the definition of "simple".

There's no need to be dismissive. I refer to simple as simple to use, not simple to conceptualise.

I would say exceptional is a situation that is rare and unexpected. When saving a record to a table with a unique constraint, I would expect the constraint to prevent saving but I would not usually attempt to handle/recover the app running out of memory.

So it's situational and I'd say the distinction is between whether you will be explicitly handling the event as part of normal behaviour. The more stable the app needs to be, the more situations need to be handled.

Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by mac01021 on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:55PM (#18388220)
You're not being dismissed. You're being corrected.

The GP, along with many other people, are trying to get software professionals to standardize on a definition of simple that means something like "composed of a single element; not compound" or "easy to reason about".

Under such a standard, it makes no sense to talk about "simple to use" vs "simple to understand". You can talk about "easy to use" vs "easy to understand". The latter might mean "simple". But "simple" never means the former. And you never say it's "simple to X" for any value of X.

Under such a standard. The degree to which people are converging on this standard in actuality is not clear to me.

Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by beaconstudios on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:25AM (#18389780)
no-one told me about this standard when I entered the industry. If it comes from some blog post that I haven't read, how am I meant to know that some small selection of developers prefer "simple/easy" as a dichotomy? It's not a correction if it's just a different opinion.
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by jstimpfle on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @12:27PM (#18400617)
There is a very popular talk by Rich Hickey (creator of Clojure), "Simple vs easy". Maybe that was what popularized the distinction among many programmers.

It's really not an arbitrary definition if you think about it etymologically. Very freely sim-ple is "unfolded" (c.f. pliers, plier qc). Whereas com-plex is "folded together". "Easy" relates more to a state of ignorance. It's about the user of the thing, not about the thing itself. (NB I'm just making this up. I'm not a linguist so I might be wrong).

Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by beaconstudios on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @12:36PM (#18400685)
it makes sense as a distinction and I'll likely use it going forwards. The only thing I objected to was the idea that this distinction is something I should already know as a programmer. I guess it comes down to a case of separate bubbles/backgrounds, as I've never heard the distinction before in my time in industry and I'd guess it's considered standard jargon within your environment?
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by jstimpfle on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @05:06PM (#18402803)
I would assume most HN folks have heard of Rich Hickey and his talks. Surely not all of them have. Learning never ends :-)
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by beaconstudios on Thursday November 08, 2018 @03:06AM (#18404961)
I knew about him, but haven't seen / heard of his talks.
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by jstimpfle on Monday November 05, 2018 @08:32AM (#18382153)
I agree and I think the conclusion is that it's up to the caller to decide what is exceptional. But unfortunately it's the callee who decides how the result is returned.

And it's not only the caller, but also the caller of the caller, and so on, who needs to be prepared for exceptions. This all has severe ramifications on the code structure.

> There's no need to be dismissive. I refer to simple as simple to use, not simple to conceptualise.

Sorry. I need to control myself. It's not about you. As another commenter stated there is an agreed upon distinction between simple and easy. The distinction is important especially among programmers, and what you described might be easy but it's not simple.

Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by beaconstudios on Monday November 05, 2018 @08:35AM (#18382176)
agreed, there are better ways to handle such circumstances (such as an Either/Validation monad). But I still think exceptions are better than error codes. If you don't handle an error code, you can proceed through your application in an invalid state. If you don't handle an exception, the application crashes out. I think the latter is preferable in most circumstances.
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by jstimpfle on Monday November 05, 2018 @08:39AM (#18382203)
Yes, and this is the reason why I'm happy with exceptions for short scripts, e.g. Python. It's a different story for larger projects where I make all the primitives by myself. There I start by explicitly aborting on cases that are not handled yet (no exceptions needed to do that), and then I gradually change the structure of the code to handle more and more "exceptional" cases.
Re:Programming Paradigms for Dummies: What Every Programmer ... by beaconstudios on Monday November 05, 2018 @08:50AM (#18382265)
I suspect you're the exceptional case though (ha ha) because error codes don't cater to inexperienced developers as well as exceptions do. They are much more liable to cause your application to fail silently unless you explicitly prevent it, as you do. Good tools are all about enabling average or inexperienced developers to not fall into those pitfalls so from that perspective, exceptions are better. Usually those tools aren't very nuanced so they can get in the way of experienced or skilled developers and you end up battling the framework instead of getting productive work done. That sucks, but it's a trade-off most companies (consciously or unconsciously) accept.