News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by GuB-42 on Sunday November 04, 2018 @05:19PM (#18378360)
There is already a lid closed sensor. Adding another mechanical switch is more expensive, adds another point of failure, takes space, may interfere with the aesthetics, etc...

The T2 chip probably also acts as a controller for a lot of the builtin sensors, including the microphone and lid closed switch. As a result, adding a feature to turn off the microphone when the lid is closed becomes trivial. Basically just add a logic gate between the two.

Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by shawnz on Sunday November 04, 2018 @06:18PM (#18378591)
Why have the control go through a sophisticated programmable chip and not just use a simple transistor/relay directly connected to the sensor?
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by klodolph on Sunday November 04, 2018 @10:15PM (#18379627)
A “simple” transistor or relay is bulky and expensive. By comparison, routing through a programmable chip (which is already on the board) is nothing more than routing work—it doesn’t add anything to the BOM.

This is just the way people design circuits these days, because it’s easier and cheaper. A single µC with a few GPIOs, rather than a bunch of logic chips scattered around the board.

Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by adrianmonk on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:53AM (#18380620)
Even on programmable chips, not every part of the chip is programmable.

The goal is to make this so it cannot be overridden in software. By designing hard-coded logic in a chip that already exists, you can get the same level of security for essentially zero cost.

Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by palunon on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:52AM (#18381077)
Especially, even if this is programmable, this chip is probably not programmable from the point of view of the motherboard...

And if an attacker is able to connect a chip programmer on your motherboard, you have a totally different threat model and bigger problems to worry about.

Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by andromeduck on Sunday November 04, 2018 @07:22PM (#18378871)
because it already has to go through it for signals processing
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by bunnycorn on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:04AM (#18380206)
Why should it go through yet another redundant mechanism.

Have you ever seen a MacBook from the last 10 years? There are no physical switches, it's an hall sensor that works with the magnets that keep the thing closed.

Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by pulse7 on Sunday November 04, 2018 @06:12PM (#18378563)
Physical switch could be made INSIDE the laptop and would be automatically pressed by the lid itself - when the lid is closed. No sensors needed. No chip needed. When lid is closed - mic is disconnected. When opened - mic is connected... User does not need to do anything else then closing the lid...
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by dom96 on Sunday November 04, 2018 @07:23PM (#18378872)
There are people out there that hook up their laptop to an external display and then use it with the lid closed. Wouldn't be surprised if some of them want to use the mic with that configuration as well.
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by Johnny555 on Sunday November 04, 2018 @11:34PM (#18379889)
Then they are out of luck with this new T4 security chip cutoff, Apple says that it cuts off the mic when the laptop is closed, and there's no way even the kernel can override it:

“This disconnect is implemented in hardware alone, and therefore prevents any software, even with root or kernel privileges in macOS, and even the software on the T2 chip, from engaging the microphone when the lid is closed,” said the support guide.

So in this respect, there's no difference between the T2 chip cutoff and a physical switch... except that there could still be a backdoor in the T2 chip cutoff that Apple hasn't admitted to.

Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by nvahalik on Sunday November 04, 2018 @08:49PM (#18379226)
In my experience, it doesn't work very well with the lid-closed... therefore I (like many of my colleagues) tend to use external mics, too.
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by rbanffy on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:23AM (#18381736)
It's a shame. It's a damn fine third or fourth screen (I'm writing this on it).
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by wild_preference on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:21AM (#18382936)
I dock because I only like one screen. My workflow is already optimized for my laptop screen (I'm on it 60% of the time). So my ideal setup is one massive screen when I have the choice.

I could credentialize in multimonitor usage (I have before), but now I'm getting used to something that's incompatible with portability.

Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by ridgeguy on Sunday November 04, 2018 @06:45PM (#18378716)
Physical switch could be done with a very small magnet behind the lid surface and an opposed micro-reed switch (or other magnetically actuated on/off device) buried behind the body surface. No surface penetrations, no exposed moving parts (reed relays are hermetically sealed).
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by brirec on Sunday November 04, 2018 @10:47PM (#18379735)
Reed switches are pretty damned huge when working at the scale of a laptop.

Not to mention it would make the case of the computer microphonic — bump it hard enough and that’ll be transmitted through the reed relay.

Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by ridgeguy on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @10:01PM (#18396830)
Yeah, I agree. Reed switches might even resonate with music played through laptop speakers. This needs a no-moving-parts magnetic sensor.
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by djrogers on Sunday November 04, 2018 @07:07PM (#18378795)
And a magnetic switch is far too easily defeated
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by jws on Sunday November 04, 2018 @09:48PM (#18379506)
My parent’s table pads do precisely that. After a particularly baffling family tech support call I drove over. Their kitchen table pads magnetically lock to stay nicely aligned, and also either put a laptop to sleep, or keep it awake when closed depending how you place them.
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by bdamm on Sunday November 04, 2018 @10:34PM (#18379690)
How? The point is to prevent invisible eavesdropping not prevent some spook on the table from hacking you.
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by modzu on Sunday November 04, 2018 @06:21PM (#18378607)
too easy to fix if it breaks
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by alphabettsy on Sunday November 04, 2018 @06:40PM (#18378698)
A switch is more likely to break than a sensor and there’s already one for closed lid.
Re:Apple's T2 chip will prevent hackers from eavesdropping o... by modzu on Sunday November 04, 2018 @10:39PM (#18379709)
theres just no lolz round here