I really dislike pandering, dismissive statements like this.
What's so inherently wrong with the entire category of genetic "enhancements" (changes for a perceived positive benefit)? You can't respond to this by just pointing out some proposed enhancements or motivations that are silly. I'm asking why you object to the very idea of any enhancements.
What about changes to make the following at some point in the future (these are just to give the general idea of positive changes, I'm not saying CRISPR could necessarily be used for them). These are things that in principle could be addressed by genetic "enhancements".
- stop people from getting diseases like celiac disease
- lessen our evolutionary desire for fatty and sugary foods (that no longer makes sense in the modern world, and which causes great harm)
- address some of the more egregious cognitive biases that cause so many problems in the world
I'm not sure how to interpret this - are you saying we should use CRISPR to make people think a certain way? If so this seems like a pretty horrific suggestion.
(Also, why do you put 'cognitive biases' in quotes, as if it's a notion of suspect legitimacy?)
You think simply because it implies a value judgement that you can be skeptical of it?
Also, you're assuming it would necessarily be something people resist. Remember that this could be quite a fair way into the future. By that time our understanding of things like the human brain and how it works (and of all its limitations), and of how to change details of our bodies and brains, may be very good and well-accepted, such that it's not a big deal.
And, regarding "How are you going to enforce your eugenics program" (emphasis added), grow up.
And "eugenics" is 'a set of beliefs and practices that aims at improving the genetic quality of a human population' [1], which is exactly what you're talking about here. There's a reason the term has fallen out of favor since WWII.
Who said anything about "Forcing all humans to think one specific 'rational' way, eliminating all 'cognitive biases'", either! Show me anything I wrote that even suggests this.
> And "eugenics" is 'a set of beliefs and practices that aims at improving the genetic quality of a human population' [1], which is exactly what you're talking about here.
Show me where I said it wasn't "eugenics". (but there's a big difference between forcing people into it and it being voluntary. There's also a big difference between various alternatives for what the genetic changes are, and I've been very clear about what sorts of things I'm talking about).
I'm amazed at the disconnect in this subthread between what I have actually said and what people are claiming I said!
To suggest otherwise is to ignore history.
And since you suggested it and are actively defending it in this thread, yes it is yours in the context of this thread. Own it.
Humans are, for example, very poor at making risk assessments. Evolution has "programmed" our brains to focus too much on certain things and not enough on others. These heuristics might have made sense in ancestral environments bit are quite harmful in today's world. Evolution has already "made us think a certain way". Why would it be so horrific to, for example, lessen certain of those tendencies, if they are harmful?
The examples I gave are hardly of "Changing how people fundamentally think and reason".
> Such transformative things will be met with pushback
It certainly could be. There's also what I said in my last comment, about why that's not necessarily so. Which you have ignored.
> if such a program is deemed beneficial by the powers-that-be it will be pushed upon the populace through means anywhere from marketing campaigns to outright genocide.
That is such a ridiculous argument to make in response to what I have said.
That is to assume that 1) the governments feel so strongly about it and 2) feel that they need to go to extreme lengths to make their will accepted. There is no reason to think that either of those conditions would be true in the case of DNA modifications like I have talked about. You certainly haven't attempted to argue for it.
Your argument could be used against any suggestion. "If such a program of combatting global warming through enforced tax on carbon is deemed beneficial by the powers-that-be it will be pushed upon the populace through means anywhere from marketing campaigns to outright genocide." See how ridiculous that sounds?
> And since you suggested it and are actively defending it in this thread, yes it is yours in the context of this thread.
Grow up. You said "How are you going to enforce your eugenics program". Show me where I said anything that even implied some sort of 'program' that is 'enforced' upon people, or that I had some sort of plan to do so? Don't try to make it out as if you were saying something else.
What about making them harmless instead? Surviving on donuts (plus perhaps supplements) and staying perfectly healthy... Think about it! :D
And I (as a scientist) really dislike having to frame everything I do as being relevant to human medicine for laymen to appreciate it.
Some things are extremely valuable even if they can't be used to treat cancer and congenital disease.
My only counterpoint is that I and many other "laymen" (as apparently we're referred to?) can't be expected to appreciate your work if you can't explain it.
It's not like genetics is the only field that struggles with this. I'm primarily a web developer and still remember the 10+ years of trying to explain to people why "The Web" was an important technology that would radically impact all of our lives. I still remember the bubble. I still remember being told this was a dead field. Where are those people now?
I remember how dismissive people were about mobile apps, too.
The same challenge applies to AI, blockchain, virtual/augmented reality, etc.
As a non-scientist, I struggle to explain to people why it's important that we increase our funding and support for all of the sciences. It's hard to appreciate how seemingly "useless" discoveries combine with other "useless" discoveries to give us the amazing advances in technology and medicine that we have today.
BUT, we have to try.
And when some "layman" dares to ask about the meaning of such-and-such a discovery, maybe take a deep breath, recognize we don't all have you incredible knowledge about this topic, and appreciate that someone is expressing interest in what you do, in the only terms they have available to them.
All of which was a long-winded way of saying: All I know about CRISPR is what I read in relatively mainstream publications. Help me out. Or don't. Your call, really.
Of course, absolutely, explaining what we do is hugely important. Actually I think that bringing new knowledge to the rest of humanity is the second most important thing after actually generating said knowledge.
> can't be expected to appreciate your work if you can't explain it.
The frustration is that people only seem capable of appreciating science when it has direct and tangible benefits for humans. (and that's why i posted the previous post, not cause you dared ask a reasonable question)
"Why do you do this?" "What can we use this for in humans?"
Basic research is vitally important, and has contributed so much to society. Yet by its very nature you can't predict if how any specific piece of basic research will provide benefit.
It's a fundamental misunderstanding of basic research and scientific and technological development to expect to be able to know, and thus say, what the benefits might be.
Rather than expecting to be able to predict the benefits, we have to have a more 'statistical' set of expectations. That, on aggregate, and over time, basic research will provide substantial benefits.
And it's not just the general public who don't appreciate this. I find that many people working in applied research don't appreciate it either.
(And no apology needed... I shouldn't take things so personally.)
In these cases, the presence of cas9 antibodies is a severe limit to many of the techniques that these companies were working towards.
Besides, the ethical problems with experimenting on human beings are extremely intractable.