I can be 'against' hate speech, but still support someone's right to utter it. Also, whose definition of 'hate speech' are we using?
One of these has a real social cost, and the other is just literal lip-service.
Did that person's comment say that they support those things? Weird, I didn't read that...
When it comes down to the fundamental rights of an individual you can't pick and choose when something is an unalienable right and when it is not. We can either have free speech (warts and all) or we can live in a world that dictates what a person can and cannot say (a world I want nothing to do with).
Back to the previous point, I support someone's right to say something, not what they say. I think white supremacists are morons who sadly misunderstand there position in the world. I support their right to SAY what they want, but I don't support the contents of their speech.
The discussion around free speech requires nuance; none of it is even remotely close to as black and white as you paint it.
I guess that wart makes this a world you want nothing to do with, because of slope's slipperiness...
Now, if you had clear intent to cause injury, blocked exits to ensure harm, and started the fire you'd be up on several charges related to fire safety codes & arson laws long before you had a prior restraint on speech claim (i.e. 1st amendment).
The original Supreme Court case (Schenck v. US [1]) from which the rhetorical flourish about fires and theaters came [2] has been pretty much abandoned in favor of later rulings like Brandenburg v. Ohio [3].
[1]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/249/47
[2]: https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-ha...
[3]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/395/444
One more interesting read on this topic: https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/27/politics/first-amendment-expl...
This cliche comes from a WWI era Supreme Court ruling and was part of the argument for how imprisoning anti-war protestors for “sedition” wasn’t technically a violation of the First Amendment.
Censorship is prior restraint. Stopping speech before it is utterred, read, or heard because reasons.
A problem with this whole discussion is that no one has the same definition of "hate speech"; it is too subjective of a term. We all (the majority) agree when it is wrong to declare imminent danger.
But like I said, I need to read up more on the rationale for those restrictions.
Can you diagram how you arrived at this travesty of a logical leap? You're mixing in at least 5 suppositions completely outside of the stated parents post. Ignoring the other foundations coming alongside by implication.
If you're not actively trying to make the world a better place for everyone, you're passively making it worse for everyone.
Sorry? I attacked your phrasing and logic, not YOU. Its like you're wanting to get angry at nothing.
I'm done here if you don't want to act civilized.
Hate speech is always an attack.
Whether it's overt (Westboro, the N-word, Swastikas, homophobic slurs, etc.) or more subtle ("the 14 words", "88", etc). Supporting the "right" of someone to use hate speech is supporting their right to attack (and thus violate the rights of) others.
Whereas, by preventing those attacks, nothing of value is lost, and real harm is prevented.
That can go sideways. You think any of the monsters of history thought they were the bad guys?
[0]https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/6492090-the-open-socie...
Oh, "but I wasn't SAYING it" you say? Who judges whether hate speech is excused by context? Facebook interns? AI algorithms? Sorry, the algorithm has pronounced you guilty, you are now banned.
That is the world you would create.
Let's just throw in the towel folks!
That said, you've shot down a lot of people's arguments but I haven't seen you promote a sensible alternative. Given your personal belief framework and given the first amendment, what do you see as a solution to this problem?
HOW? How do you eradicate hate speech? What is hate speech? Anything that makes you feel bad? So do you single-handedly decide what speech is ok or not?
You're lambasting people's protection for free speech as "protecting hate speech" (which is a false dichotomy) and not offering any alternatives. I don't really get what the point of what you're saying is other than "This upsets me." And that's fine if hate speech upsets you, but understand that it upsets other people too, even if those people support free speech as defined by the US bill of rights and legal framework.
I guess what I'm saying is...stop complaining unless you start examining the problem critically (ok, you don't like hate speech... who enforces what hate speech is? how is it enforced? etc. right now you're attacking free speech but not offering ANY compelling or thought-out alternatives) and for the love of everything stop thinking in absolutes. You seem to have forced yourself into black and white thinking. That's not only counterproductive, it's dangerous. People who think in absolutes are targets to become tools of hate. If you don't start seeing nuance in things, you will be easily swayed and manipulated by anyone who has a Nice Shiny Solution to "end hate speech."
It's plenty easy for people in general (except HN, where no one seems to have any notion of what that could possibly be without a grand arbiter to define it down to the spin of each quark) to recognize hate speech.
Platforms already have frameworks for dealing with bad actors. Hate speech is just like any other abuse of a platform, and should be treated as such.
In short, I have come to realize that I'm never going to convince this highly-privileged audience to genuinely care about actual marginalized people over some imagined, theoretical bogeyman. So this will be my last wasted effort on the subject, here.
I don't think you're examining the problem (and censorship IS a problem) critically. Forgive me, but you are the one copping out. And actually, people do ask "what is privacy." It is being redefined all the time and there are people actively fighting for their definition of it. They at least have a definition.
What? Why are you saying white people specifically are downvoting your opinion? And aren't you manifesting hate towards a group of people with a physical characteristic?
The only ones who see fault in protecting the marginalized are the privileged. The only ones who advocate the right for hate speech are those who are functionally immune to it.
And the demographics of HN are young, single, white, males. It's the only explanation I can find for someone downvoting "Hate is an absolute."
You're literally expressing "hate" towards a group of people.
When called out you call it observing things. Do not those with opposing points of view observe things? So now it's about debating objective observations? Or is it about hate?
How can you not realize this is a perfect encapsulation for the defense of free speech and open debate? Can you not fathom that many people do not share your specific point of view on what is hate, or your specific observations and may have some of their own? Nah.. you just want to railroad your views over theirs with no opportunity for a rebuttal.
Giving hate any leeway is to give it 100% of its power. It must MUST MUST be fought as an absolute.
For instance, you are absolutely against hate. Now all someone has to do is change your definition of hate. Even in a subtle way. Now you are absolutely against something else you may not have been before. And this absolute disgust for something can morph and become something completely different than it was before. And you will never question it because you have absolutely made up your mind and there is no other way.
The world is not black and white, in any way. There are only shades of gray. There is no such thing as absolute good, and there is no such thing as absolute bad. Please examine this in yourself before you become a tool for someone else's agenda.
Absolutism like this often leads to logical traps. Even when it doesn't it's still unhealthy. Besides, the only way to exterminate an idea is to exterminate the people that might embrace that idea which in itself sounds pretty wrong.
Apparently this means yelling at white people for your downvotes on the internet.
Why haven't they had to interface with it? Because they have privileged positions in society, so hate speech has never been directed at them. Their lives have never been made harder to live by someone else in an influential position saying they don't deserve to exist.
Really? As a minority and member of other protected groups, I have had to endure what you characterize as "hate speech" many times and yet I remain in complete opposition to the goals of your movement. The restrictions on speech and thought championed by your movement are contrary to the ideals of classical liberalism and, in my opinion, are a hazard to the continuation of a free society.
Your movement does not speak for me and I wish nothing to do with them. I suspect that I am far from alone in this regard among minorities.
However it seems as though your idea of a free society doesn't extend freedom to people for whom hate speech is a much greater obstacle.
Does extending them freedom from one problem by removing a greater freedom from both them and the rest of us sound like a good bargain? It doesn't to me nor does it seem so, thankfully, to a great many others.