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Re:Proposition C by joshuawright11 on Friday October 19, 2018 @02:03PM (#18258658)
Is homelessness in SF really about affordable housing? Obviously San Francisco has insane housing prices but there are dozens and dozens of shelters & programs (I volunteer at a couple) for homeless people to take refuge and get their life back together.

As I understand it (and as my friend who is an SF police officer where 90% of his job is dealing with the homeless), the much larger problem is SF's (& perhaps society in general's) failure to provide institutionalized care for people with severe mental disabilities.

No amount of money, support systems, or opportunity for getting off the street is going to help people with severe schizophrenia or dementia who have no family or safety net. A lot of these people the only solution is for them to be institutionalized. Unfortunately, there isn't much of a way for someone to be institutionalized against their will (unless they are causing danger of harm to themselves or others) so they continue to live on the streets.

I think what this city really needs is a place to send people deemed in need of institutionalizing, and the ability for that to be determined. Of course that would never fly in a place like SF, but I think it would be a happier life for those people than life on the streets.

Re:Proposition C by snowmaker on Friday October 19, 2018 @03:11PM (#18259165)
There is actually a severe shortage of shelter beds in San Francisco.

You are right that mental health is a consideration, but the bigger problem is both simpler and easier to fix: the number of shelter beds (and other forms of supportive housing - including long-term housing) has decreased since 2004 and is woefully inadequate for the number of current homeless.

For more reading on this topic I recommend this detailed analysis: https://medium.com/@josefow/the-one-stat-that-explains-sfs-s... Also Mayor London Breed's analysis and approach: https://medium.com/@LondonBreed/a-bold-approach-to-homelessn...

Re:Proposition C by abalone on Friday October 19, 2018 @09:25PM (#18261182)
> the much larger problem is SF's... failure to provide institutionalized care for people with severe mental disabilities

You can debunk this with a simple observation: Homelessness has grown significantly in the past 20 years. Has severe mental illness grown significantly during that time?

The bigger problem here is Stripe's argument is misleading. They're comparing cost-per-resident instead of cost-per-homeless-resident, when SF actually has a higher rate of homelessness than other cities. We actually spend less per homeless resident than NYC. Totally invalidates their argument that "if it's just a question of money this issue would already be solved."

Re:Proposition C by smsm42 on Saturday October 20, 2018 @02:36AM (#18262081)
> Has severe mental illness grown significantly during that time?

No, but protocols for involuntary commitment of people with borderline states may have.

> They're comparing cost-per-resident instead of cost-per-homeless-resident

It is pretty easy to derive one from the other, given homelessness levels, and given as SF is has one of the highest ones (slightly lower only than NYC) the conclusion seems to stay - expense level is very high.

> We actually spend less per homeless resident than NYC

Source?

Re:Proposition C by abalone on Saturday October 20, 2018 @12:46PM (#18264090)
> given homelessness levels, and given as SF is has one of the highest ones (slightly lower only than NYC) the conclusion seems to stay - expense level is very high.

That doesn’t follow at all. NYC spends 10x what SF does on homelessness. SF spends $3.8K [1] on each homeless person while NYC is around 10x that. [2]

[1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/Bu...

[2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/cost-of-housing-homeless-in-she...

Re:Proposition C by smsm42 on Saturday October 20, 2018 @04:42PM (#18265340)
There's a trick there. They remove all administrative costs, all prevention costs, all money that are spent by all government except for one specific department, and then declare that's "real" spending. As if all the other money is not spent, towards the same goal. And, I suppose, they compare it to full spending in NYC (not sure since the second article is paywalled). But whatever happens in NYC, counting only net spending on shelters makes no sense - the money spent on all programs in that area, including of course their admin costs, should be counted. If admin costs or non-direct spending is too high and not important for solving the problems of the homeless, if should be changed, not just ignored. If only 22% of the budget reaches the homeless, then maybe we should advocate first not for raising taxes, but for figuring out why the other 78% do not.

Then there's another trick - the money which were strictly defined to help only current homeless (so if the program worked for somebody and she is no longer homeless, or is prevented from being homeless by the program spending, that money not counted) and then divided by the number of people who has been homeless at any point, including those that aren't homeless now. The yearly figure is divided by cumulative number, not by average at certain moment. That's like dividing number of seats in the class not by number of students in each class at the same time, but by number of students that will use that room over a year, and arriving to conclusion that school classes have 0.1 seat per pupil and we need 10x seats.

Re:Proposition C by orf on Friday October 19, 2018 @09:38PM (#18261220)
> Has severe mental illness grown significantly during that time?

Maybe? Who's to say it has not?

Re:Proposition C by adamrezich on Friday October 19, 2018 @02:12PM (#18258714)
Being born in 1991 I didn't realize this until recently but apparently we used to be better about this before these institutions shut down in the 80s-90s. I still don't really understand why this happened or how the resulting issues haven't been addressed.
Re:Proposition C by gumby on Friday October 19, 2018 @06:04PM (#18260424)
> apparently we used to be better about this before these institutions shut down in the 80s-90s. I still don't really understand why this happened or how the resulting issues haven't been addressed.

There are two explanations, idealistic and cynical; I'll let you decide what percentage of accuracy applies to each (neither were 0% or 100%).

The idealistic justification was that the institutional option was pretty grim (think "one flew over the cuckoo's nest") and that many of those patients would do better at home or in halfway houses.

The cynical explanation was that this was at the beginning of the huge anti-tax / anti-government wave that began with Reagan's election and continues today: closing the institutions cut government expenditure.

Re:Proposition C by aeternus on Friday October 19, 2018 @02:51PM (#18259021)
Simply shutting them down probably wasn't the best solution, but those institutions were generally more geared towards locking people away than recover & treatment.
Re:Proposition C by js2 on Friday October 19, 2018 @07:35PM (#18260854)
I found this via Google and it seems to cover the highlights:

https://www.thebalance.com/deinstitutionalization-3306067

Re:Proposition C by zapita on Friday October 19, 2018 @09:52PM (#18261259)
> I still don't really understand why this happened

Reagan and his failed economic policy.

> or how the resulting issues haven't been addressed.

The ongoing personality cult around Reagan and his failed economic policy.

Re:Proposition C by TarpitCarnivore on Saturday October 20, 2018 @11:54AM (#18263819)
Things like SRO's are vanishing in the city and they were at one point a way for lower income people to live off the streets: https://thebolditalic.com/life-inside-sf-s-vanishing-single-...
Re:Proposition C by kareemsabri on Friday October 19, 2018 @02:32PM (#18258873)
Couldn't the money be used for mental health facilities? Toronto has https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_Addiction_and_Menta... - which I believe is publicly funded
Re:Proposition C by core-questions on Friday October 19, 2018 @07:46PM (#18260888)
One problem is that we don't really "commit" people the same way as we did decades ago. It's a lot harder to just declare someone unfit and lock them in an institution - and for good reason, but the unfortunate result is that mental institutions no longer serve the same function of cloistering these people away from the rest of society.

The reaction to unacceptable conditions was correct and justifiable, but we've thrown the baby with the bathwater in the sense that now, mentally handicapped people are homeless all over the place...

Re:Proposition C by leetcrew on Friday October 19, 2018 @08:24PM (#18261013)
this is something i think about a lot, as one of my best friends from high school developed severe schizophrenia in his early twenties and has been living on the streets for several years now. his parents have plenty of money and would be willing to pay for pretty much any treatment program, but he completely refuses to try at all. they've had him involuntarily committed several times now, but he just walks out as soon as possible every time. the doctors say there is still a possibility of managing his condition, but that the time window is closing.

on the one hand, it's really frustrating because it seems like his life could be greatly improved if he could be forced to undergo long term treatment. he might even be grateful on the other side. but on the other hand, living in a putatively free society, is there a point where you just have to take someone at their word that they don't want to do something? he doesn't seem to be hurting anyone but himself, and he claims to be happy.

Re:Proposition C by cco on Friday October 19, 2018 @11:34PM (#18261597)
Depending upon the state a few ounces of weed could get him locked away for far longer than it would take to get his mental illness under control. That to me starkly calls out the hypocrisy.
Re:Proposition C by a1369209993 on Saturday October 20, 2018 @02:54AM (#18262130)
> he might even be grateful on the other side.

There would probably be a person on the other side who would be grateful, but it's far from obvious that that would be the same person as the one you forced into long term treatment. It's a good thing that our society makes it this hard to involuntarily commit people, and as cco mentions, it would be nice if we could extend this to other kinds of forcible confinement.