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Re:Proposition C by simonebrunozzi on Friday October 19, 2018 @01:32PM (#18258375)
Context for non-SF or non-SV people: Prop C is a proposal to increase the budget dedicated to help homeless people, by taxing gross receipts taxes for companies with more than $50 million in annual revenue.

Patrick's view is essentially that instead of adding taxes for such companies, which could potentially impact middle class workers, we should let the current SF mayor take care of this issue, being in favor of additional taxes to fund whatever initiative is considered valid.

Now, here's my view. I've been living in SF for six years, I know exactly one homeless (Charlie), I'm not an expert on poverty or homelessness, but let's say I've seen my fair share of bad things in the world to at least have an opinion.

We don't have exact data on how and why people become homeless. We know that (mostly) they're not born homeless, they become homeless.

I think we should work on the causes. But "we", who? Patrick Collison, Sam Altman, Marc Benioff, etc, you can pick a trusted, smart serial entrepreneur, give him a big budget ($100M), and ask him to discover the causes and try to solve it by measuring how far these $100M go.

Re:Proposition C by thrmsforbfast on Friday October 19, 2018 @01:44PM (#18258489)
> But "we", who? Patrick Collison, Sam Altman, Marc Benioff, etc,

The recommended statement by Wiener addresses this: "A broad-based stakeholder group — including Mayor Ed Lee, then-Supervisor David Chiu, the Controller, the business community, labor, and social service nonprofits..."

Watching Bill Gates try to solve problems in education [1] was a real wake-up call for me. I had a rather involved conversation when the initiative was first announced with an education leader who was deeply suspicious and expected failure (and, what's more, for exactly the reasons that the RAND report identified).

It turns out that, sometimes, leaders who have dedicated their lives to problem X really do know better than people who have succeeded in the business world.

And perhaps more importantly, that more money isn't always a "no downsides" proposition. Big spends on the wrong ideas can suck the air out of the room and divert other resources away from more promising ideas.

But I suspect that the people whose names you mentioned already know that the most effective ideas are probably going to come, in part, from people who have put in their 10,000 hours working on actually solving homelessness.

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-melinda-gates-foundatio...

Re:Proposition C by TarpitCarnivore on Saturday October 20, 2018 @12:02PM (#18263869)
> It turns out that, sometimes, leaders who have dedicated their lives to problem X really do know better than people who have succeeded in the business world.

I often cringe when I see non-education folks trying to tackle the problem of education in classroms by "automating" or pushing video courses. Solving the issue of education is far more than what's IN the classroom (Here in Jersey we had Abbot districts which gave more to low income schools, it's failed). While supplies are a big problem, more is to do with environment. Having done teaching in a low income district (every single prospective teacher should do this) and an upper middle-class district the difference was stark. I had kids in 1st grade who could not even tie shoes or zipper jackets, let alone have a pencil.

Re:Proposition C by structural on Friday October 19, 2018 @06:22PM (#18260535)
This link posted on HN just yesterday seems to be extremely apropos: https://80000hours.org/articles/accidental-harm/

In short, you have to be very careful when you work on hard problems not to divert resources away from other approaches... that might be even more valuable.

Re:Proposition C by asah on Friday October 19, 2018 @01:43PM (#18258476)
http://hsh.sfgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/2017-SF-Poin...

For example, there's a longstanding rumor that the homeless are being "shipped from out of state" from places like Texas giving free bus tickets. Here's the messier statistics:

"Sixty-nine percent (69%) of respondents reported they were living in San Francisco at the time they most recently became homeless. Of those, over half (55%) had lived in San Francisco for 10 or more years. Eight percent (8%) had lived in San Francisco for less than one year. This is similar to the survey findings in 2015. Ten percent (10%) of respondents reported that they were living out of state at the time they became homeless. Twenty-one percent (21%) reported they were living in another county in California. California counties that respondents reported living in at the time they most recently became homeless include Alameda County (5%), San Mateo (4%), Contra Costa (3%), Marin (3%), Santa Clara County (1%), and some other California county (5%)."

learn more: https://www.google.com/search?q=sf+homeless+population+repor...

Re:Proposition C by manfredo on Friday October 19, 2018 @01:59PM (#18258617)
Note that "at the time they most recently became homeless" is often a potentially misleading statistic. Commenters in the past have pointed out that metrics like this often count people being released from prison or jail and ending up on the streets as becoming homeless after being housed in the State. So if a homeless person gets bussed in from out of state, gets imprisoned, and subsequently gets released they're counted as having been living in California at the time they became homeless.
Re:Proposition C by rdtsc on Friday October 19, 2018 @02:14PM (#18258742)
Excellent report, thanks for the link. It is quite readable and easy to understand. Can also see recent 3-year trends on most graphs.

I found the section on primary cause of homelessness interesting:

---

22% of respondents reported job loss as the primary cause of their homelessness.

15% reported drugs or alcohol.

13% reported an argument with a friend or family member who asked them to leave

12% reported eviction

10% reported divorce or separation

7% reported an illness or medical problem.

---

I suspect mental health is something that is very pertinent. I used to volunteer with the homeless and drug addiction seemed like was used for self-medication. Quite a few people were suffering from anxiety, schizophrenia and other issues that prevented them to forming meaningful relationships, holding a job, staying in touch with their family (who often have disowned them).

Further under the section of "Health" I found:

---

41% drug or alcohol abuse

39% psychiatric or emotional condition

31% chronic health problem

Then

29% reported Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)

23% a physical disability

12% a traumatic brain injury

11% reported having an AIDS or HIV related illness

---

Re:Proposition C by 1024core on Friday October 19, 2018 @02:00PM (#18258628)
> Sixty-nine percent (69%) of respondents reported they were living in San Francisco at the time they most recently became homeless.

I am so tired of reading this bullshit "statistic". It is a self-reported number. If a homeless person thinks it benefits him to say so, he will. And homeless people will say anything to survive, as they are barely surviving.

If you came where from Podunk, MN and crashed on your buddy's couch last year before he kicked you out? Congratulations, you were "living in SF before you became homeless".

If you came here from somewhere else and stayed in a shelter for a day before you got evicted? Congratulations, you were "living in SF before you became homeless".

If the question was, "were you a rent-paying resident of SF before you became homeless", the answer would be totally different.

There are 76 non-profits that feed from the trough of homelessness[1]. Don't they have admin overhead? How much money is wasted on this overhead?

[1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-spends-recor...

Re:Proposition C by thaumasiotes on Friday October 19, 2018 @04:20PM (#18259711)
To be fair, "Of those, over half (55%) had lived in San Francisco for 10 or more years" is much harder to game, though just as easy to lie about.

I'm more worried about this thought in the article:

> While cities report inconsistently, San Francisco currently spends around $430 per city resident per year on services and programs for the homeless, compared to $260 in New York and $110 in Los Angeles. Yet the problem in our city is worse, and despite increases in spending, has continued to worsen.

It's not a surprise that the city with more spending on services for the homeless has more homeless. That's exactly what you'd expect under pretty much any model.

Do you believe that subsidizing the homeless means you'll get more homeless? Then higher spending will directly cause more homelessness.

Do you believe that places with bigger problems will try harder to do something about them? Then higher spending will reflect more homelessness.

Re:Proposition C by wilg on Friday October 19, 2018 @07:12PM (#18260745)
I wonder what the numbers look like per _homeless_ person in the city.
Re:Proposition C by thrmsforbfast on Friday October 19, 2018 @02:08PM (#18258696)
In a country with open borders between states and extremely cheap transportation, homelessness really should be thought of as, at least partially, a federal problem. And funded accordingly.

> [1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-spends-recor...

i laughed when I read that title. "Tracking results" is definitely a form of overhead, so the article is literally complaining that charities are ineffective because they don't have enough overhead.

In general, "minimize overhead" isn't equal to "maximize impact per dollar". The obvious software industry exemplar is the oft-repeated complaint about companies hiring expensive engineers and then refusing to buy a $200 monitor.

Re:Proposition C by User23 on Friday October 19, 2018 @07:35PM (#18260853)
Applying the Commerce Clause to vagrancy is darkly funny.
Re:Proposition C by thrmsforbfast on Friday October 19, 2018 @10:53PM (#18261461)
The commerce cause is mostly orthogonal (not irrelevant, but orthogonal) to no-strings-attached social services funding, even under very literal/originalist interpretations.
Re:Proposition C by 0x8BADF00D on Friday October 19, 2018 @02:02PM (#18258636)
> If homelessness was just a question of money, this issue would already be solved. While cities report inconsistently, San Francisco currently spends around $430 per city resident per year on services and programs for the homeless, compared to $260 in New York and $110 in Los Angeles. Yet the problem in our city is worse, and despite increases in spending, has continued to worsen.

This is all you need to know. We should starve the beast, and then the city will actually do something about the homeless problem.