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Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by TeMPOraL on Friday October 19, 2018 @11:29AM (#18257381)
Dale Carnegie, in his book "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living", raised a similar point. I won't quote directly, as I read it in Polish; the following is based on my notes:

In one the latter chapters, he has a rule about "summoning your own enthusiasm". The primary observation in that part of the chapter was that it's really hard to truly exhaust someone physically, and even harder to exhaust them mentally, if they're doing something they actually care about. He gave some examples, one involving special forces people, and concluded that the primary source of tiredness for most people is lack of motivation - lack of interest, or not being able to feel there's a goal to all the work one is doing.

While my opinion is that Carnegie was exaggerating a bit here, I won't deny that this rings very true to my experience. As a programmer, I don't get physically taxed by work, and I very rarely get mental exercise too (most programming on regular web jobs is just plain tedium). But I do feel really tired on the job very quickly, and - back when I was a regular employee - the feeling used to evaporate almost immediately when I clocked out for the day.

I can even give an example from yesterday - lots of work and a visiting a doctor made me really tired by the evening, but I decided to sit down and write some code for a side project. My tiredness was gone immediately, and after 2 hours of cranking out code, I had to force myself to go to sleep, in order to have any energy for the next day.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by existencebox on Friday October 19, 2018 @12:10PM (#18257720)
I was literally talking about this exact phenomena with the wife last night. It's almost impossible for me to be bored if I'm doing nothing. I could fill years of daydreaming, just in my own head. However, give me work tasks that I have no interest in, and I'll feel so bored/lethargic/unmotivated that just keeping my eyes on task and moving forward requires mental exertion.

When I was young, apparently this meant I had ADHD (Throwing this in as a snide comment to expose my opinion of how my primary schooling treated this symptom in children EDIT: I see in a side comment you were concerned about undiagnosed ADD, I'll admit I'm somewhat concerned with _overdiagnosing_ ADD. The medicines I was given gave me ticks that took decades for me to get rid of and altered my mental state in terrible ways, and it meant that instead of inspecting WHY I felt this way, I simply got shoved chock full of pills and then booted/put with other misfits, which just made the focus problem worse. The joke I used to make as a kid was that I only had an attention deficit for things that didn't matter).

I took issue with that, largely because I find the response to be eminently logical, and built coping mechanisms to let me succeed in spite of it, but the underlying driver is still there.

I realize this is such an insubstantive comment, but it's a topic I've tossed around in my head for many many years now, and often haunts me with a "why do you feel such fundamental friction with doing your job like every other professional adult" and hearing others express the same root is somewhat reassuring.

(I realize this is tangential, but if you're _at all_ a hip hop/poem fan, check out 9-5ers Anthem by Aesop Rock. this is one of my "at work coping mechanisms" when I feel this way.)

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by TeMPOraL on Friday October 19, 2018 @01:28PM (#18258336)
Yeah, I feel the same way you do. Please, leave me with nothing to do; I'll manage. Left to my own devices, I have 20 ideas 5 trains of thought to explore per minute.

> I see in a side comment you were concerned about undiagnosed ADD, I'll admit I'm somewhat concerned with _overdiagnosing_ ADD.

I get it. Child AD(H)D seems definitely overdiagnosed in the west; from what I read, giving medication seems to be the easiest hack to get kids to survive modern school system. But personally, I just want to have an expert opinion on whether or not I might have adult ADD, simply because I'm running out of plausible hypotheses, and this one fits well. I was depressed in the past and worked through that. I had anxiety issues, but they're almost gone too - I don't generally feel debilitating background anxiety anymore, unless I'm seriously falling behind on my obligations. The only unresolved thing left is the anxiety and weakening I feel in context of working.

> The joke I used to make as a kid was that I only had an attention deficit for things that didn't matter

I still feel like this. In a better world, this would be fine. Alas, we're not there yet.

> and often haunts me with a "why do you feel such fundamental friction with doing your job like every other professional adult"

Yes, this is exactly how I feel all the time, and had since entering the workforce. I have decent skills, I don't struggle with technical challenges. I only struggle with this fundamental friction. I look at people around me - friends, coworkers - and they all seem so productive and relaxed. Hell, my wife is the exact opposite of me - she's so good at getting things done at work she puts David Allen to shame. So yeah, it's reassuring to know that I'm not alone in this state - so thanks for sharing!

> (I realize this is tangential, but if you're _at all_ a hip hop/poem fan, check out 9-5ers Anthem by Aesop Rock. this is one of my "at work coping mechanisms" when I feel this way.)

Not a fan, just a casual listener. But I'm always open to any coping mechanism for this particular problem.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by sjg007 on Friday October 19, 2018 @05:03PM (#18260045)
ADD is not over diagnosed. It's probably more prevalent in the population than we think it is. The medications are not specifically harmful in a potential misdiagnosed case... they are just not effective. And there's multiple medications which have difference efficacies for different people. That being said 80% of people with ADHD find medication effective.

Dr. Russell Barkley has a book on it and also several talks on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7QuWchHvOY http://www.russellbarkley.org/

But you should get screened if you feel it would be beneficial. Find a doctor that specializes in ADHD/ADD. The way most adults find out they have ADHD/ADD is when they take their kids in for screening, usually due to school issues.

Depression, anxiety are co-morbid with ADHD/ADD as well.

Here's a good talk on one women's experience with ADHD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiwZQNYlGQI

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by existencebox on Friday October 19, 2018 @06:50PM (#18260662)
My behaviorist wife and mother (Freud would have something to say about me, wouldn't he) would tend to disagree with your first statement (overdiagnosis) with the caveat of "within certain populations." We focus a lot on kids, unfortunately often under the age within which the DSM actually supports these sorts of diagnoses.

I would personally disagree with your "medications are not specifically harmful in a misdiagnosed case." I'm not encouraging people to avoid seeking whatever help they see fit, but rather to not whitewash over the very tractable impact it had on a rather dark year or two of my childhood, and the lasting aftereffects. I honestly don't want to start a heated debate about whether or not to medicate, moreso call out to others who had a similar negative outcome that they're not alone and that it's not impossible to develop healthy coping mechanisms without pills.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by Viliam1234 on Saturday October 20, 2018 @07:36AM (#18262789)
It can be simultaneously underdiagnosed and overdiagnosed.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/17/joint-over-and-underdia...

> Suppose that 3% of the population has ADHD.

> Suppose that of people with ADHD, 50% of them realize they have ADHD like symptoms and go to a psychiatrist to get checked out.

> Suppose that of people without ADHD, 10% of them falsely believe they have ADHD and also go to a psychiatrist to get checked out.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by Maven911 on Friday October 19, 2018 @06:37PM (#18260600)
Try listening to a police scanner on broadcastify. I like the nypd bronx ones, its the sufficient level of quiet dead time with some action too.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by TeMPOraL on Saturday October 20, 2018 @02:15AM (#18262009)
I tried listening to police bands on actual radio over where I live (in some places they don't encrypt their comms yet). Gave up after hearing way more PII than I was comfortable with.

There's a similar problem with taxi bands, though it's been improving over the years (in particular, the new wave of pay-through-app taxis helping). It used to be that drivers would read full card data aloud to transmit it to the base - in-the-clear.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by puranjay on Saturday October 20, 2018 @01:42AM (#18261934)
There are certain things I just can't do after a while. Like writing. I can't mentally bring up the energy to write after 4-5 hours.

But as soon as I switch to another task, such as coding, my mind lights up again.

Task switching should be incorporated into your routine if you find yourself getting bored by your work.

Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by bootsz on Friday October 19, 2018 @11:43AM (#18257512)
Love it, thanks for the reference. Things rings true with my experience as well.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by TeMPOraL on Friday October 19, 2018 @11:58AM (#18257640)
The book is good in general, I recommend it. Reading it and thinking it over lowered my background anxiety level by a noticeable amount.
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by internet555 on Saturday October 20, 2018 @01:17PM (#18264257)
I don’t trust anything Americans will write on this topic as many I’ve met (am American with a father who loved “self-help”) believe completely delusional things about energy/motivation and ruin their health while doing damage to everyone around them from it
Re:Paul Buchheit on Joining Google, How to Become a Great En... by TeMPOraL on Sunday October 21, 2018 @09:52AM (#18267955)
We're talking Carnegie here. He created the self-help genre. And unlike what came after, his books are relatively bullshit-free.