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Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by yumashka on Thursday October 11, 2018 @05:06AM (#18191948)
Citation: "When KFR is being used, the October 2018 Update will delete the original, default Known Folder locations. Microsoft imagined that this would simply remove some empty, redundant directories from your user profile. No need to have a Documents directory in your profile if you're using a redirected location, after all."

Sorry for harsh language, but this is not a bug. This is a complete brain damage of those who decide to implement such behaviour.

I have redirected Documents. And there are A LOT of programs that directly try to use C:\Users\user\Documents instead of redirected.

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by userbinator on Thursday October 11, 2018 @08:11AM (#18192794)
Sorry for harsh language, but this is not a bug. This is a complete brain damage of those who decide to implement such behaviour.

That's not "harsh", harsh is what happened to the unlucky users who lost data because no one on the development team bothered to call it out. It should be an implicitly understood rule that you NEVER remove a file you did not create, unless the user explicitly asked to, but I guess MS considers it acceptable to do anything to a user's system after they convinced everyone to take forced updates as being acceptable too.

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by cesarb on Thursday October 11, 2018 @08:58AM (#18193103)
> but I guess MS considers it acceptable to do anything to a user's system after they convinced everyone to take forced updates as being acceptable too.

This. Once you get in the mindset that you know better than the user, it's not a big jump to "I know these directories should be empty, any content is leftover garbage, let's remove them".

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by Bartweiss on Thursday October 11, 2018 @11:18AM (#18194197)
> you NEVER remove a file you did not create

Absolutely this, with a followup of "and if you're 'helpfully' deleting an unused folder, check that it's unused first!"

Given that this was (stupid) desired behavior, making sure Documents didn't have stuff in it should have been a screamingly obvious step. It would still have been utterly unacceptable, it could still have created weird downstream bugs when users installed things that target the now-missing default Documents location, but at least it wouldn't have set a bunch of data on fire without any warning.

But then, I guess relying on common sense after the first terrible decision is made is never going to work. There's a reason "never break user space" is rule 1 for Linux updates...

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by ilikehurdles on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:52AM (#18193507)
Microsoft doesn’t consider the OS to be the “user’s system”. They clearly see it as something they rent to the user a little bit each day. If the user wants to keep the system for a little longer, he/she has to make a special request to Microsoft that they hold off for a bit before retaking control of the OS.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by bitwize on Thursday October 11, 2018 @10:10AM (#18193654)
"Windows is a service and updates are part of that service. So if you could just go ahead and reboot now, that would be terrific."
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by drbawb on Thursday October 11, 2018 @01:09PM (#18195204)
I ditched Windows as soon as I saw that "Windows is a service . . ." notification show up in the bottom right after an update, boy did that make me livid. (You can ask my roommates, I actually shouted at my computer; it had just spent over an hour, on a best in class NVMe drive, doing that update.) I was pretty sure I paid $200 for an operating system, not an operating service. Admittedly that was just the straw that broke the camel's back, but this is just getting insane.

What I paid for is a HAL, some drivers, a filesystem, a handful of media codec licenses, and some basic applications to manage all that. What I got was a bunch of "apps" like "Photos" that routinely try to use up all my available system RAM, a start menu that connects to the internet, displays ads, and routinely lags on a high-end workstation, a file index service that was broken for 3 major update cycles, and an ever increasing number of "privacy toggles" in the completely dysfunctional control panel^W^W settings app.

Microsoft clearly doesn't care about "developers, developers, developers" anymore, because I have never lost this much productivity to an operating system in my life. (I say this as someone who has used Linux long enough to remember how bad WiFi was in the era of ndiswrapper; as well as someone who has used Windows Me and Vista for significant stretches of time.)

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 11, 2018 @01:27PM (#18195353)
Oh yes. Excuse my harsh language, but fuck SaaS, and fuck Windows if it tries to be a SaaS. And I say that as someone growing up on Windows, still using it for work sometimes, and planning to buy a Surface device in the near future (I guess maybe I should reconsider).

Actually, I should probably use the term SaaSS, because that describes the kind of software I hate with passion more precisely. I recently stumbled upon this[0] essay by RMS, and like usual, it turns out he had this thing figured out years before I've even noticed we had a problem. If Windows wants to become a service substitute for an OS, I'll save myself future trouble and migrate away completely.

--

[0] - https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s...

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by derefr on Thursday October 11, 2018 @03:19PM (#18196262)
> Microsoft clearly doesn't care about "developers, developers, developers" anymore, because I have never lost this much productivity to an operating system in my life.

Azure's APIs are really nice! Microsoft cares about people developing against Azure. Those developers make them money.

And they've invested a lot of effort into allowing you to develop against those APIs on macOS or Linux.

What Microsoft doesn't care about, is people trying to use Windows to do development (outside of an enterprise use-case, where everyone is using the LTS version of Windows anyway.)

I feel like, increasingly, Microsoft sees Windows the way Apple sees iOS: something you develop for (to target the consumers that use it), not something you develop on.

Imagine a Microsoft that didn't have a Windows product, just their cloud products (Azure, Office 365, Xbox Live, etc.) Would that Microsoft build an OS? Or would they just tell you to use macOS/Linux to interact with their software ecosystem?

I feel like the answer to that question tells you a lot about Microsoft's priorities.

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by llampx on Friday October 12, 2018 @07:29AM (#18200667)
What I don't understand is, what led Microsoft down this path to begin with? Don't they have 90% penetration in desktop OSes and are fighting with established and trusted players like AWS, GCP in the data center and PlayStation and Nintendo in the living room? Why make it harder on yourself by shooting yourself in the foot?

The problem with Windows was never that it didn't have enough features, it was that it wasn't reliable enough. So instead of making it more reliable, they've doubled down on the features.

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by SturgeonsLaw on Friday October 12, 2018 @11:33PM (#18206260)
The trend for a while now has been diminishing user time spent on desktops and more time spent on mobile/web. Presumably Microsoft wanted to stake out a territory in those spaces.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by pishpash on Thursday October 11, 2018 @05:12PM (#18197078)
Maybe it's finally the "year of the Linux desktop," lol... I mean both Apple and MS don't care much, and the market for desktop OS has become specialized again, so if it doesn't happen now it's never going to happen.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by fapjacks on Friday October 12, 2018 @04:14AM (#18200016)
This whole meme truly underestimates the average person's Stockholm Syndrome for fascist rule. Microsoft's userbase is like some kind of microcosm of learned helplessness. I've never seen so many otherwise intelligent people feverishly defend Microsoft, its OS, and their actions. I have literally seen in the last week someone posting about Windows 10 completely hosing some of their important pictures, then in the same breath defend the people responsible.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by mixmastamyk on Thursday October 11, 2018 @12:22PM (#18194821)
Recently was reading the blog of the team upgrading conhost. On it they joke several times that the developers doing the work were not even born yet.

Well, this is the kind of thing that happens when your whole team is interns and the "senior" is 28.

Reading the associated bugs on github I also learned that there were lots of complaints about the new console, not on features, but breaking compatibility that is. Guess no one thought to start a new project, rather than changing a 30 year-old one that hadn't been touched in 20.

TL;DR: At least one codger is needed on teams doing this kind of work to give perspective.

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by 0xfeeddeadbeef on Thursday October 11, 2018 @06:59PM (#18197709)
More precisely: at least one Raymond Chen is needed on every team in Microsoft.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by mixmastamyk on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:19PM (#18198392)
Not really, anyone with a decent amount of experience.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by 0xfeeddeadbeef on Friday October 12, 2018 @07:35AM (#18200689)
Hm. If I don't include emoji and smileys in text, nobody understands jokes these days...
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by mixmastamyk on Saturday October 13, 2018 @01:34PM (#18209043)
“More precisely:” is not how to start a joke, typically they are the opposite of precise.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by llampx on Friday October 12, 2018 @07:30AM (#18200673)
> Guess no one thought to start a new project, rather than changing a 30 year-old one that hadn't been touched in 20.

To be fair, that's what led to Powershell and Command Prompt co-existing. I guess Microsoft wanted to reduce the number of console backends.

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by mixmastamyk on Saturday October 13, 2018 @01:32PM (#18209036)
The shell(s) and console are two different things, I’m talking about the second.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by cheeseomlit on Thursday October 11, 2018 @04:37PM (#18196846)
>NEVER remove a file you did not create

Seems like common sense, but Microsoft has been doing this for a while. In Windows 7 (not sure about later releases) the OS runs a 'Desktop Cleanup' periodically that deletes shortcuts to network locations it can no longer connect to. God forbid your network drives don't map one day and Windows decides to nuke all your desktop shortcuts... this actually happened to a user I was doing support for and they were understandably livid

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by Tsubasachan on Saturday October 13, 2018 @06:38AM (#18207349)
Disable windows 10 automatic maintenance.

Windows is going into the Apple direction I guess.

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by gnud on Thursday October 11, 2018 @08:48AM (#18193024)
How about 'delete the folder if empty'? Why on earth didn't they think to do that?
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by Bartweiss on Thursday October 11, 2018 @11:21AM (#18194225)
Yes, seriously. I would still think it's totally unjustifiable as a 'helpful' change, but at least it'd be causing problems like "hey, this install failed, how do I fix it?" rather than "where's all my stuff?"

That, and I'm just a bit shocked that "the folder should be empty, so delete it" didn't just naturally make people think "obviously I should check if that's true first". Even if it's not a total fix, the failure to add that is it's own layer of screwup.

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by JohannesH on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:42AM (#18193430)
Even that could potentially be a breaking change, like if the folder was expected to be there by some application.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by imtringued on Thursday October 11, 2018 @10:00AM (#18193570)
That can be solved by updating the broken applications. Deleted data is never going to come back unless you have a backup.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by mrec on Thursday October 11, 2018 @01:10PM (#18195209)
Not all applications get updates.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by rbanffy on Thursday October 11, 2018 @01:58PM (#18195655)
"Save/Read X to/from the user documents folder" should be an OS-level function (on Windows, where you expect a desktop user to have a documents folder).

Every time a program calls a deprecated API, the developer who signed the code should get an e-mail.

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by cesarb on Thursday October 11, 2018 @02:54PM (#18196084)
The API wasn't deprecated when the code was written.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by chmod775 on Thursday October 11, 2018 @08:52AM (#18193054)
How does that even work? Does Windows not have proper hard/soft links? Don't you maybe have to do some weird things to get around them?
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by detaro on Thursday October 11, 2018 @08:57AM (#18193095)
Windows/NTFS has links, but they aren't used for this (and software support for them is ... iffy, which can be an issue with backup tools etc, for which they aren't just transparent). These "known folders" are roughly implemented as environmental variables containing paths to the configured folder.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by withinrafael on Thursday October 11, 2018 @01:55PM (#18195638)
Soft and hard links are only supported on NTFS formatted disks.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by vel0city on Thursday October 11, 2018 @03:12PM (#18196220)
Soft links are supported on ReFS, but hard links are not.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by withinrafael on Thursday October 11, 2018 @04:07PM (#18196654)
True, but ReFS isn't supported in consumer versions of Windows so not really worth mentioning.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by vel0city on Thursday October 11, 2018 @05:10PM (#18197065)
Somehow I missed that Microsoft removed the ability to create new ReFS volumes in regular Windows 10 Pro. Quite frustrating, thanks for the heads up.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by hornetblack on Thursday October 11, 2018 @10:41PM (#18198732)
I created a vhdx file on windows 2016 server, formatted it with ReFS and copied it to my PC. And I mount the vhdx as D:. It's such a silly way to do something.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by shawnz on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:19AM (#18193253)
They are used for the old "My Documents" folders though, right? So why not use them here too, just as a fallback?
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by detaro on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:34AM (#18193371)
I think that works through the same principle, not through links.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by MikusR on Thursday October 11, 2018 @10:11AM (#18193663)
My Documents, Application data and few others are links.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by detaro on Thursday October 11, 2018 @10:12AM (#18193671)
TIL, thanks!
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by chapium on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:10AM (#18193186)
Links have been a feature since vista, at least
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by pndy on Thursday October 11, 2018 @12:27PM (#18194852)
Since Win 2k; I'm using Link Shell Extension[1] that puts nice and simple GUI feature in context menus and on icons (green shortcut arrow for example or chain).

[1] - http://schinagl.priv.at/nt/hardlinkshellext/hardlinkshellext...

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by jki275 on Thursday October 11, 2018 @10:14AM (#18193691)
Do they work though? I remember trying to use them in the past and never found them to function exactly right.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by tjoff on Thursday October 11, 2018 @10:37AM (#18193860)
I use them for tons of stuff. Such as moving spotify song cache (not the same as offline storage location that you can specify in settings) so that it wouldn't use precious SSD space for cache (which was quite the inconvenience back when SSDs were very small/expensive).

It doesn't work well with applications that have a habit to remove and recreate the directory that you want to link though (for obvious reasons).

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by lysp on Thursday October 11, 2018 @10:22PM (#18198649)
I use mine for shortcuts to drives on servers.

    C:\Shares\Server01\C -> \\server01\c$

    C:\Shares\Server02\C -> \\server02\c$

    C:\Shares\Server02\D -> \\server02\d$

    C:\Shares\Web01\webroot -> \\web01\e$\files\stuff\wwwroot
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by jki275 on Thursday October 11, 2018 @10:48AM (#18193955)
I guess I need to relook them then. Would definitely make a few things easier in my life. I really don't want my steam directory on my main machine, being able to hard link it to an iscsi drive would be nice if that's possible.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by madhato on Thursday October 11, 2018 @11:21AM (#18194231)
Steam has the option to use a different drive, no need for symlinks. https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7418-YUB...
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by jki275 on Thursday October 11, 2018 @11:56AM (#18194564)
Yeah, but not over the network. It specifically disallows UNC paths.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by vel0city on Thursday October 11, 2018 @03:13PM (#18196230)
Map the UNC path as a network drive and probably won't notice.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by jki275 on Friday October 12, 2018 @07:14AM (#18200621)
Tried it... unfortunately didn't work. It knows.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by rbanffy on Thursday October 11, 2018 @01:54PM (#18195631)
> This is a complete brain damage of those who decide to implement such behaviour.

I'd love to read what Linus Torvalds would say about it.

There are programs that have bugs before the first line of code is written. This is one such case.

Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by Ballantara on Thursday October 11, 2018 @11:09AM (#18194117)
This. How much lost time, panic, and rage did carelessly deleting these folders cause? It was a dire mistake.
Re:Windows 10 October 2018 Update no longer deletes your data by yAnonymous on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:05AM (#18193151)
This seems like a common sense thing that every intern would consider. Why the Microsoft development team didn't really raises some questions not only about their QA, but about their whole development process.