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Re:The death of Google by lern_too_spel on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @05:38PM (#18180016)
Google is run by PMs, not engineers, data scientists, or economists. The problem is their PMs are universally bad, believing they know more than the user but knowing just as little at best.
Re:The death of Google by busterarm on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @05:42PM (#18180044)
Probably true, but gosh I sure hope not.

I know three different PMs at Google in a non-work capacity, and these three people in particular are the most 'intellectually self-righteous' people I have ever met in my life. Basically they're total bullies. I really hope this isn't exemplary of the rest of them, but your statement leads me to think that is not the case.

Re:The death of Google by fermienrico on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @05:49PM (#18180095)
Just curious - PM at Google stands for Product Managers?
Re:The death of Google by jghn on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @06:17PM (#18180293)
Yes
Re:The death of Google by mda on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @06:05PM (#18180219)
Not really. PMs has little influence in general.
Re:The death of Google by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @06:43PM (#18180445)
It completely depends on the product area.
Re:The death of Google by WisNorCan on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @05:56PM (#18180152)
Google is run by engineers. Amazon is run by PM.
Re:The death of Google by CorpusCalcium on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @09:41PM (#18181343)
Not in any of the areas I'm familiar with. For instance they can't even fix long-standing standards-compliance bugs or other interop issues in Blink or YouTube or Google Search... they're way too busy pushing redesigns and features that will help them keep their tenuous performance leads on their own web properties.

They have very intelligent and capable folks trying to "do no evil", but ultimately they're a business, not a charity. They rarely actually care about their engineers' opinions unless it helps with public image or maintaining a competitive edge (no matter how artificially) or helping them start a new product line (or close one that isn't paying the bills).

Thankfully I will say that it sounds like there is just enough blowback over the past two or three years that it's not all bad. But it's certainly not a place that I would call "run by engineers", and hasn't been for at least 4 years now.

Re:The death of Google by Apocryphon on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @07:03PM (#18180575)
And Apple?
Re:The death of Google by ryandrake on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @08:33PM (#18180988)
Apple doesn’t even have PMs (at least most of the sw and hw orgs). They are engineering driven. They have project managers who keep the trains running on time but have no product decision making power.
Re:The death of Google by CorpusCalcium on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @11:35PM (#18181762)
Again, I have to wonder what divisions in Apple you're talking about. The folks I know working on WebKit practically have zero decision making power. It's all about saving face and keeping Safari viable as the only engine on iOS.

I get the impression that people claiming that companies like Apple are "engineering-driven" are only talking about their new, non-core projects. But then my perceptions are only colored by the folks I know working at those companies, so whatever.

Re:The death of Google by Apocryphon on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @09:23PM (#18181237)
Yeah. But who tells the EPMs what to do?