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Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by lghh on Saturday October 06, 2018 @05:44PM (#18157427)
> Both are something your average first year CS student could put together in a weekend or two.

Sometimes I see people and wonder which of these two things is true:

1. They have no idea what the average developer actually is.

2. They are lying to make it sound like they were elite when they were a freshman in college.

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by anonymousgal on Saturday October 06, 2018 @05:53PM (#18157470)
I suspect a bit of both in this case. SirCmpwn unfortunately has done this for many years, and is one of the people that pushed me outside of the Minecraft dev world, he can be really nasty :(.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by ddevault on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:03PM (#18157529)
I was a jerk the first few years I was involved in the Minecraft scene, and I'm still a jerk all too often today. I'm sorry for making you feel that way. If you want to talk, my email is in my profile.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by askafriend on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:49PM (#18158042)
At the end of it all, people won't remember your work - but they damn sure will remember how you made them feel. They'll remember how you treated other people. Ultimately, that will be the judge of your worth in the eyes of whatever community you participate in and society broadly.

Few people do work that transcends awful character. Very very few people. Steve Jobs is an example, but let's be honest neither you nor I will have the same level of impact to excuse ourselves after treating others terribly.

With that being said, I admire your effort to mend things and the bit of self-reflection in your response.

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by dmos62 on Sunday October 07, 2018 @05:10AM (#18159608)
Do you think Steve Jobs made contributions that outweighed him being a jerk? I don't think that ever happens, in that I don't think you ever forget someone being a jerk, but then I don't think we aren't capable of appreciating the good and the bad at the same time. There must be studies around this. Maybe someone is aware of some.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by Coward1946 on Sunday October 07, 2018 @12:55AM (#18158906)
It's amazing how little interactions add up to a reputation. You banned me from a minecraft irc channel when I said that the leap second was causing issues with some minecraft servers. (see https://www.wired.com/2012/07/leap-second-bug-wreaks-havoc-w...) since then I avoided a collaboration opportunity with you for this purpose. (Mediacrush-related)

Bad experiences like this add up, and it's very hard to repair a broken reputation.

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by cliffwarden on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:25PM (#18157940)
"I'm sorry for making you feel that way. If you want to talk, my email is in my profile."

We should all so this more often.

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by prawnsalad on Saturday October 06, 2018 @09:56PM (#18158458)
I wouldn't take this as a sincere gesture. So many people say this in the public eye just to save face without any intention to take it further.

I realise I'm replying in context of Sir_Cmpwn specifically (and I have had my own interaction with him in the past on unrelated projects in very sour taste) but it is more common with anybody that promotes an apologetic-but-contact-me attitude. It's an all to familiar trait of people trying to sound good in threads of their topic.

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by Operyl on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:05PM (#18158491)
It seems a number of us have had bad run ins with Sir_Cmpwn. I too have had issues, it’s a shame because I think he’s a brilliant guy.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by kapep on Sunday October 07, 2018 @03:37AM (#18159318)
It looks like an apology on the surface but I don't think it is one.

"I'm sorry for making you feel that way."

That's very close to the classical non-apology apology "I'm sorry you felt that way". [1]

He isn't sorry for his behavior, but sorry that his behavior caused certain feelings. The post he's responding to doesn't mention any feelings, so I assume he meant "Sorry for making you feel that you were pushed out of the scene". He's shifting the focus from his actions (for which he is responsible) to other people's feelings (for which he is not responsible, since he can't control other's feelings).

"If you want to talk, my email is in my profile."

Meaning: Please don't continue talking in public about this.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by MaulingMonkey on Sunday October 07, 2018 @05:10AM (#18159607)
> He isn't sorry for his behavior

"I was a jerk the first few years I was involved in the Minecraft scene, and I'm still a jerk all too often today." is the longer sentence preceding it which is 100% a statement about his own behavior. "for making" actually makes the sentence you're quoting about his behavior too, in my interpretation of it.

It's an apology. Maybe you don't think it's a strong one, or a sincere one, or one backed up by corresponding action, but it is one acknowledging damage done, some responsibility for it, and stating a desire to change (unless you have a wildly different interpretation than I do about what, exactly, "I'm still a jerk all too often today" means.)

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by petrolejboj on Sunday October 07, 2018 @05:10AM (#18159609)
Usually those type of people had some trauma in the past or had really bad parent-child relationship (probably abused or something). I honestly think SirCmpwn should get professional help. Mental illness should not be ignored.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by hatsunearu on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:39PM (#18158716)
SirCmpwn was kind of a jerk from what I remember of him in an IRC I was in... but I still liked him (not the guys who ran the channel, unfortunately). He was damn smart and I seem to have a higher tolerance for "smart but jerk" types of people (of which there are many)...

Also, do you remember me? :D

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by kaendfinger on Sunday October 07, 2018 @12:16PM (#18161281)
To the contrary you were an inspiration for me, you even joined our small development community and were interested in our development.

Nobody is perfect, you’ll always screw up with one person and succeed with another :)

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by Operyl on Sunday October 07, 2018 @02:42PM (#18162000)
The problems mentioned here is that it’s obvious a number of people have had meaningfully bad interactions with him, it’s an unfortunate pattern.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by wolfgke on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:11PM (#18157571)
> Sometimes I see people and wonder which of these two things is true:

> 1. They have no idea what the average developer actually is.

> 2. They are lying to make it sound like they were elite when they were a freshman in college.

Concerning 1: they might really be living in some kind of filter bubble of really smart people. Smart people often attract and are surrounded by smart people.

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by Tade0 on Sunday October 07, 2018 @04:51AM (#18159548)
A while ago I checked what's the rate at which code gets put down within the organization I'm working at.

I went through a few repos and the result was a weirdly consistent 30-45 LOC(sans tests) daily for a 2-3 person team - at least on the front-end.

Since then I'm sceptical of opinions saying that a 1500 LOC+ project could be put together "within a weekend".

Not saying it doesn't happen, but good projects of this sort have to be rare.

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by swiley on Sunday October 07, 2018 @10:13AM (#18160626)
If you sit down for a weekend and write a one shot project that's never going to be used in production 1500 LOC is more than doable, especially as a college student where you sometimes can go many weeks without doing anything productive.

Sitting at a desk for 6-8 hours every weekday with an editor in front of you has this weird demotivating effect. Add to that all the unit tests (and general need for stuff to actually work well the first time), documentation, and not being able to just run off and build what ever you feel like and you get closer to 30-45 LOC.

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by tralarpa on Sunday October 07, 2018 @05:04AM (#18159586)
The numbers you have found are the numbers averaged over all kind of projects (new projects, old projects). It is well known that the average daily LOC output in the industry is not high. Once a project has reached a certain complexity or maturity, people spend more and more time on debugging, refactoring, documenting, profiling etc.

For a new project, 1500 LOC within a weekend sound possible if the goal is to quickly produce some kind of proof of concept. You would probably spend the following days on redesigning the whole thing, though :)

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by Double_a_92 on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:16AM (#18165657)
Once I spent 2 days debugging something that got solved be deleting half a line (some hopefully unneeded condition in a long if)...
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by MauranKilom on Sunday October 07, 2018 @08:07AM (#18160171)
You can put out a lot more code when you're starting from a blank page than when it has to integrate with thousands of lines of existing code. Not to mention that at the start there's basically no refactoring, debugging or rewriting target, so you can just pump out new code. Whether 1500+ LOC on a weekend is realistic is another matter.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by wolfgke on Sunday October 07, 2018 @08:25AM (#18160240)
> I went through a few repos and the result was a weirdly consistent 30-45 LOC(sans tests) daily for a 2-3 person team

The "sans tests" metric is in my opinion some kind of cheating to keep the number small.

Let me explain: when I was younger, I was already immensely productive as a programmer. But because I was young and naive, I did not care about testing etc.

When I look at code that I produce today in my free time, I observe that the ratio between test code and normal code is about 6:1. It is similarly hard to produce good test code as it is to produce "ordinary" code.

So by demanding that the code is well-tested, we need a lot more code to solve the same job. If I multiply your upper bound of 45 LOC by my factor of 7 (= 1 + 6), I obtain 210-315 LOC/day. This is much nearer to my experience of 400-500 LOC per day. The remaining difference can be plausibly explained by experience of other team member, time for communication in the team, time for communication with customers, overhead demanded by management, ...

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by Tade0 on Monday October 08, 2018 @04:03AM (#18165190)
I had to use this metric to account for the, ahem, work ethic of some and the lack of tests resulting from it.

But I agree - a good test suite is going to be much larger than the code it's testing.

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by int0x80 on Sunday October 07, 2018 @05:47AM (#18159739)
Lord. I was reading 30/45 KLOC...
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by dan-robertson on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:50PM (#18158044)
Well programmers are well known for being bad at estimating how much work something is. I’m less sure about datafixerupper but a bunch of the functionality of the command parsing could be done in a few weekends. Making sure it works reliably and adding completion and ensuring a good interface would be harder and more work.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by warent on Saturday October 06, 2018 @05:46PM (#18157439)
Usually I err on the side of the former (option 1). The more someone becomes an expert their field, the more they tend to underestimate their own knowledge/skill.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by Coincoin on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:38PM (#18157702)
It's just simple straight humblebrag.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by Sir_Cmpwn on Saturday October 06, 2018 @05:50PM (#18157456)
I did not go to college so I have to admit I'm not actually familiar with the average freshman's skill level. That being said, these are basic and well-understood problems solvable by the average, say, junior developer in the industry. Less of a reach?
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by mclehman on Saturday October 06, 2018 @05:58PM (#18157500)
Far, far lower than you're envisioning. There are certainly a lot of freshmen who could easily do something at this level, but the average freshman would be hopelessly lost (at least in my (recent) experience).

By the way, excellent work on Sway. I've been meaning to jump to i3 forever, and decided to move to Wayland on my most recent install. I do have some bug reports to send your way, though, I should get on that.

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by Sir_Cmpwn on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:41PM (#18158015)
Thanks! Please do send those along, though a patch is worth a thousand bug reports.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by mclehman on Sunday October 07, 2018 @03:38PM (#18162260)
Indeed it is. I'm hoping to get the time to dig into it enough to submit a patch, but school has me pretty busy at the moment.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by screye on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:36PM (#18157989)
An average CS freshman knows how to write hello world and print Pascal's triangles on the command line.

An above average freshman at an above average university can probably make Sudoku, Tetris or Brick breaker.

Even the smartest students probably won't be able to make.minecraft in a weekend. Maybe as a semester long project. But not a weekend.

Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by ddevault on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:41PM (#18158014)
I never suggested anyone could make Minecraft in a weekend. Microsoft only open sourced two small libraries that only represent maybe 0.1% of Minecraft.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by joebubna on Monday October 08, 2018 @11:57AM (#18168575)
Just chiming in to say that I agree with what you said. I found the released libraries to be underwhelming to the point of almost uselessness based on the descriptions. I've written stuff like that for projects back when I was in school, and if I needed such tools, making my own would likely take about as much time as implementing someone else's.
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by Double_a_92 on Monday October 08, 2018 @05:27AM (#18165725)
At least half my class struggled (heavily) with recursion while implementing seach algorithms e.g. They all still got their degree as well...
Re:Microsoft open sources parts of Minecraft: Java Edition by giancarlostoro on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:52PM (#18158051)
Degrees is irrelevant. I have an associates in a related but not quite CS degree and show more quality of work than another junior (and sometimes senior developers) who has a bachelors degree. I have tried to teach him so many things numerous times and its all in one ear and out the other. Seen the same problem with a "senior" developer who claims to love some standards yet his code commits say the opposite.

/endrant