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Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by askmike on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:05AM (#18121170)
> they get such bad press for the way they treat their workers it only seems fair to laud them for this.

That's because they treat their workers terrible. They're a huge company with a lot of profit and how people at the bottom of the chain are treated is maddening. They're seen as an example of how not to treat workers (and for good reason).

They definitely should not be lauded for this: They did some calculations and projections which showed that raising the minimum wage brings more benefits (PR stunt, not being the target of new legislation anymore, etc) than downsides (now having to pay X more to some people).

I refuse to believe Bezos woke up this morning with a new moral sense to change the ship around.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by fixermark on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @01:42PM (#18123902)
Possibly worth observing: they bring in a ton of gross cash, but their revenue is smaller than a lot of Internet operations because their out-lay is high: physical storage, transportation, etc. are all expenses that Internet companies with similar profits don't have to shoulder.

In 2016, they made a profit of $857 million on a revenue of $30.1 billion--- i.e. profit margin of 2%, compared to Alphabet's 9.7% or Facebook's 36%(!!!). It's the number that investors care about, because it tells them how likely they are to get money back out of a business when the invest money into it. It's also a number the company cares about, because it tells them how much of a shock to their fixed costs they could stomach without suddenly finding themselves spending more than they make to keep the doors open.

Amazon's (relatively) razor-thin margins are what make the company so paranoid about costs like wages and benefits; they've seen America's history of burning hulks of older companies wrecked by making pension promises when profits were high that they couldn't honor when profits tailed off.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by t0mbstone on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @02:22PM (#18124277)
Profits don't tell the whole story though.

Imagine if you are Amazon. Do you take the extra billion dollars you earned this month and throw it into another warehouse and more growth opportunities? Or do you keep your size the same and use that money to raise wages?

It's more of question of how they are allocating funds. Either way, the "profit" stays the same.

Amazon has been focused on growth at all costs, and that meant keeping wages razor slim and reinvesting every spare penny.

The real question is: Will slowing their growth investments and paying their employees a fair wage actually help their growth in the long run?

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by fixermark on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @02:45PM (#18124485)
That's the strategy that makes a company more flexible to market shocks. If your revenue is tied up in new buildings, you can react to market shock by decreasing your growth rate. If your revenue is tied up in wages, you can't react to market shock by slashing your wage budget, for (obvious) psychological reasons that half-constructed warehouses are utterly immune to. ;)
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by dollar on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @01:54PM (#18124025)
Amazon has never cared about net profit, they care about compounded growth through reinvestment of profits. It took Wall Street about 15 years to figure out they should leave Bezos alone.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by i_cant_speel on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:09AM (#18121215)
That's why any company treats any of their employees well. Google isn't giving their employees all these perks out of the goodness of their heart. They give them to attract the best talent to make the most money. Amazon is doing the same thing.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by beaconstudios on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:19AM (#18121296)
that's the whole point of the job market. The dysfunction displayed by Amazon is evidence of a supply/demand imbalance in the job market for warehousing roles, because if people have an option to move to another company that does not treat them badly they generally will do. As it stands I'm guessing the ratio of Amazon applicants to positions is way too high meaning they can afford a high turnover rate and focus solely on increasing profit per head by squeezing their people for productivity and cutting costs spent on benefits. It's basically the same as those call centers that employ and mistreat students.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by emodendroket on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:21AM (#18121328)
I worked in a call center and I used to always wonder why they'd accept such extreme turnover, given that there were a few weeks of training before they could put you on (the fact that there was a course in touch-typing as part of that training probably gives you an idea where the bar was for hiring). But I'd read some analysis that suggested that in some ways the employers running these systems found that desirable, because it was hard to unionize a workplace where people didn't stick around for a whole year on average.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by RankingMember on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:32AM (#18121436)
You have to imagine that the quality of service people are providing isn't that high either if they're miserable. I think about peoples' quality of life in a call center whenever I'm stuck on hold with Verizon or some other faceless corporation.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by emodendroket on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:37AM (#18121487)
People pretty regularly just told customers whatever they wanted to hear to get them off the phone. The more scrupulous among us wouldn't say anything false or break any rules but would deliberately upset customers to get them to ask for a supervisor (call length was a major metric which affected your pay substantially, so if you couldn't really do anything for them this was the best strategy).
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by beaconstudios on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:45AM (#18121558)
"when a measure becomes a target" and all that.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by johnchristopher on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @10:03AM (#18121730)
> because it was hard to unionize a workplace where people didn't stick around for a whole year on average.

That's why you want inter-professional union.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by emodendroket on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:35PM (#18123242)
How would that end up working? I think few people think of themselves as "call center professionals" because they end up in some other job, but maybe I'm misunderstanding your suggestion.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by johnchristopher on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @01:18PM (#18123650)
Typically every professions from every sectors (employees, medical, farmer, etc.) end up into a given category (social workers, railroad workers, etc.). Unions then use the memberships of all the employees across different companies and sectors as a leverage to negotiate better working conditions or retirement on behalf of their affiliates. So when/if is a strike is called for for a particular problem at company X or in sector Y they get the full force of every affiliates behind the union (edit: they can also dispatch strikers from company X at company Y location so workers from company Y aren't directly threatened or put into uncomfortable situations for instance, and massive street demonstration can rally many workers from many different companies/sectors).

Of course that system has been built over decades and the way it operates and negotiations are handled can vastly differ between neighboring countries (think France which is more confrontational at first and Germany where unions are more integrated into the process) (plus, unions have different political outlooks, so it's not one size fits all).

In countries with a strong social net unions use their affiliate's entrance fees to guarantee they are paid for striked days. Also some countries have laws that forbid employers to punish strikers (granted they announce in time they are going on a strike). Some sectors (medical, police, etc.) have some restrictions on that "right to strike".

That's just a really short resume, though and I don't know if such a thing could be possible in the USA.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by beaconstudios on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:30AM (#18121412)
it makes sense, because unionisation will decrease the company's competitiveness, leading to their clients shifting to another (non-unionised) call centre and everyone getting fired. Thus companies in sectors like this end up trying to squeeze every drop out of their employees before they quit, because they are expendable.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by emodendroket on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:36AM (#18121476)
We were directly employed by the company for whom we were providing service rather than being a third-party call center.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by beaconstudios on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:39AM (#18121507)
even in that case, companies are aware of the cost-increasing effect of unionisation so the action is the same, but via direct company action rather than market attrition.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by fixermark on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @01:45PM (#18123930)
As Amazon is in the retail shipping business, essentially, their market is also seasonal and accustom to hiring and firing. It's seen as a bit more of a stain on a software company's reputation to have high turnover in software engineers; much less so in warehouse workers, where the whole infrastructure is designed to staff up for the December holiday rush and then let most of those people go.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by liveoneggs on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @10:06AM (#18121776)
does google employ or contract-out many lower-paid employees?
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by bena on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @10:22AM (#18121944)
If they do, I'd imagine it would be for the things that are necessary for what they want to provide but aren't necessary for what they want to do.

They want a nice, clean work environment for their employees. So you need janitors.

Want to provide catered lunch? You need food service workers.

And the bar for "good enough" at those levels are much lower. You don't need a 5-star lunch every day. You need a decent lunch that's better than going out. And things can only get so clean.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by i_cant_speel on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @02:34PM (#18124379)
I'm not sure but I don't see the relevance of that. I was simply pointing out that the incentives for both companies are the same, so Amazon shouldn't be bashed for this in particular.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:38AM (#18122664)
Yes. All of their warehouse workers are employees of Integrity Staffing, not Amazon. Presumably Amazon is directing Integrity to bump up its wage.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by dang on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @01:39PM (#18123871)
That's a huge claim, which you shouldn't make without support. (I tried a quick search and found nothing to support "all".)

Also, the parent's question was about Google.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by johnqpub on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:24PM (#18123101)
This is simply 100% false. What do you think the 500,000 employees of Amazon are doing if not working in a warehouse? They're not programming.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:27PM (#18123139)
The press lumps Integrity's headcount as "Amazon". It is to Amazon's benefit that this falsehood goes unnoticed.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by johnqpub on Wednesday October 03, 2018 @11:48AM (#18131408)
Go look at the last quarterly filing.

https://ir.aboutamazon.com/news-releases/news-release-detail...

Employees (full-time and part-time; excludes contractors & temporary personnel): 575,700

As dang said, if you're going to make a big claim, at least attempt to be right.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by ams6110 on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:26AM (#18121363)
Amazon's profit is not what I would call "a lot." As recently as 2015 they had some negative quarters. This quarter last year less than 1%. 2018 has been higher but not more than about 4%. Compare the top 20 or so corporations average profitability of about 15%, and Apple's over 20%.

https://ycharts.com/companies/AMZN/profit_margin

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by nebulous1 on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:39AM (#18121510)
Isn't that due to their currently loss-making Amazon Studios though?
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by austenallred on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:56AM (#18121650)
It’s due to the fact that any ounce of profit they would have they instead re-invest into the business.

Which, by the way, is (part of) why they’re so dominant.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by ryandrake on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:56AM (#18122822)
Another chart showing what Amazon has been doing:

https://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_4298_a...

Net income doesn’t do that naturally or by accident.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by ams6110 on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @02:40PM (#18124427)
Agree, and in any other situation we'd be praising this. They're investing in the future, looking beyond the next quarter, etc.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by ionised on Wednesday October 03, 2018 @05:51AM (#18128830)
Investing in the future is great.

Doing so while exploiting workers and dubious tax arrangements is not.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by emodendroket on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:20AM (#18121308)
> I refuse to believe Bezos woke up this morning with a new moral sense to change the ship around.

No, of course not, but it's a victory that the pressure on them was enough they felt they had to make a concession.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by askmike on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:18PM (#18123023)
True. So the people who have been saying things should be lauded, not Amazon.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by emodendroket on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:36PM (#18123250)
Sure. Ultimately I think the question of whether Bezos is good or bad is almost beside the point.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by X6S1x6Okd1st on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @02:01PM (#18124087)
Why is it so shitty to congratulate someone for making a good change even if that change may have been in their best interest?
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by badcede on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @02:06PM (#18124126)
Because it feels bad to concede anything at all. Which is a form of greed in its own right.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by munificent on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @02:19PM (#18124256)
> They did some calculations and projections which showed that raising the minimum wage brings more benefits (PR stunt, not being the target of new legislation anymore, etc) than downsides (now having to pay X more to some people).

This may be true, but it doesn't nullify the fact that the workers are actually receiving a benefit from this, and it's a good thing that's worth pointing out.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by alttab on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @01:27PM (#18123757)
There's no winning, is there?
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by JPGalt on Wednesday October 03, 2018 @02:20PM (#18133113)
I have friends that work there. This was not a gift, the took benefits from the workers to pay for this raise. In fact they pulled all of the bonuses from the lower level employees as well as their share of stock in the company. This is a dog and pony show, nothing more.