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Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by timClicks on Sunday September 30, 2018 @11:39PM (#18109880)
Really interesting, this behavior implies that Google hasn't figured out a way to verify what a page states as its creation date.
Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by dexen on Monday October 01, 2018 @08:25AM (#18111930)
This could be solved with cryptographic timestamps [1]. The current generation of tooling is a bit raw - cli utility and Python library - but fully usable on the publisher's end. If the practice picked up any traction, surely more front-end tooling would be created.

Example workflow:

- write a blogpost

- build a canonical representation based on a simple HTML or XML template; including canonical URL, title, content, authorship (emails, social media URLs, etc.), optionally related multimedia in a Zip archive, perhaps inlined via data URL

- alternatively, re-purpose a common Web scrapping format, like the one used by Firefox, for canonical representation

- submit the canonical representation for timestamping [2]

- provide a <meta name="publication-timestamp" value="canonical representation url"> in the document as published, to facilitate automatic and manual verification

- upon dispute, provide the canonical representation and verify in the relevant timestamping services

[1] for example http://opentimestamps.org/

[2] from experience, the processing takes under 30 minutes with OpenTimeStamps

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by gambler on Monday October 01, 2018 @09:58AM (#18112549)
I agree that we need cryptographic timestamps. Seems like this would be a good use for blockchain, but any implementation would be better than nothing, as long as it's not fully centralized.

The proposed workflow seems overly complex, though. For authorship verification all you need is ability to submit a block of text and receive a signed timestamp.

  Input: text
  Output: timestamp + signature
  Verification input: text + timestamp + signature.
The simpler it is, the more universally it will be used. It should not 20 minutes either. The crypto involved should be pretty trivial.

Any metadata could be built into the text itself as comments or hidden fields. However, this will not verify the URL the data is coming from, which might be desirable.

The second kind of service could be verifiable archival service.

  Input: URL.
  Output: page content after rendering + timestamp + signature.
  Verification input: text + timestamp + signature.
  The service stores: timestamp + signature.
This could be used to verify that at time X URL Y contained text Z. It doesn't matter whether the text is dynamic and go change later, since you could keep original page content.
Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by dexen on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:27AM (#18113510)
> It should not [take?] 20 minutes either.

Fair enough; the tech I know and mentioned (OpenTimestamps) is tied indirectly to Bitcoin's blockchain confirmation speed, thus both slow-ish, and also probabilistic rather than guaranteed. On the other hand, it gives good assurance that the tool will be around for a long time, and able to survive any single service provider's failure.

> The crypto involved should be pretty trivial.

Depends on the requirements. The tech I know and use (OTS) is privacy-conscious and handles timestamping of documents without revealing their actual content. Instead you submit hash(hash(document) + random, private IV) [1], which provides for both anonymous use, and ability to keep the signed content private, as the signed hash cannot be directly tied to any plaintext. This isn't strictly necessary for publicly-posted web pages, but certainly is useful for private documents, security-sensitive documents, etc.

All in all, it's a starting point. Another possible approach would be to standardize submission to, and verification through a service like https://archive.is/, but that puts all trust into one 3rd party.

> Input: [plain]text

Directly timestamping the plaintext fails badly if the timestamping service provider is dishonest and creates an earlier timestamp for the content in their name, only to turn around and accuse the author of stealing the content. Or - a slightly paranoid scenario, but probably warranted in the post-Snowden era - if a whistleblower tries to timestamp some materials before distribution, but the timestamping service provider's filters catch the document and instead alert the government. Ergo, I'd prefer a blind timestamp, with the ability to reveal at the discretion of the author or whistleblower, even at the cost of more complex workflow.

[1] sadly this means the author needs to keep a file containing the IV and a bit of other metadata.

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by gambler on Monday October 01, 2018 @02:24PM (#18115393)
All good points, although there are some arguments that can be made in favor of more straightforward protocol even if it's less secure. I agree that submitting plain text could be problematic for some use cases. At the same time, there are some cool things you could do with plain text, like using the same mechanics for content-addressable content.
Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by thinkmassive on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:28AM (#18113520)
Another option could use TLSNotary to verify the content at time of publication, built into the CMS/publishing platform

https://tlsnotary.org/

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by askmike on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:47AM (#18110103)
Google crawls the open web non stop. They definitely have this data. It's just not exposed to the (legal) team dealing with DMCA takedown requests..

EDIT: Or as to the example above: whatever application is responsible for picking the main article to show somewhere.

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by codetrotter on Monday October 01, 2018 @01:34AM (#18110272)
They crawl the web non-stop yes, but how often an individual site is crawled varies.

> Our crawl process is algorithmic: computer programs determine how often we should crawl each site. If you post new articles on your site throughout the day, you should be able to see them appear on Google News fairly quickly.

> [...]

> From the moment we discover a new article, we'll keep re-crawling it looking for changes. Since we noticed that most changes to articles occur just after they're published, we revisit articles most frequently in the first day after we've found them. After that, we visit them less often.

https://support.google.com/news/publisher-center/answer/4039...

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by askmike on Monday October 01, 2018 @02:02AM (#18110340)
Fair point, if your content gets copied to unknown website X which Google hasn't crawled for days they might not be able to tell where the article appeared first.
Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by IncRnd on Monday October 01, 2018 @02:12AM (#18110376)
Have you figured out a way to verify what a page states as its creation date?
Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by peteboyd on Monday October 01, 2018 @07:25AM (#18111648)
Inside Webmaster Tools is “Fetch” tool. It allows you to submit any page to Google. You can then also have Google index the page. When you fetch a time stamp is recorded and a full HTML copy of the page too.

I am not sure if Google uses this to prove which is the original copy. Most website owners don’t know this exists. So it’s hard to use it as proof of the original, because the original creator may not even use the tool.

However, if everyone started to submit key articles, then it theoretically could compare the two fetches and decide which is earlier. It could be automated too with sitemap uploads as you post content.

Moreover, you could then use this as evidence in a DMCA take down that your copy is the earliest. Anyways, there are ways to prove earliest content.

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by IncRnd on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:22AM (#18139617)
That's my point. There is no way to verify the date assertion of an arbitrary page.

The problem is akin to standing in a crowd where some people hold a sign with their age on it and others do not hold a sign, then trying to verify the age of an arbitrary people.

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by comboy on Monday October 01, 2018 @08:14AM (#18111873)
You can prove in many ways that your content existed at a given time. But it seems quite impossible to prove that a copy of it didn't exist earlier somewhere else.

edit: unless the content itself contains a proof like the latest block hash or something like that, but that could be edited

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by styfle on Monday October 01, 2018 @03:52PM (#18116175)
Yes, this appears to be the date google shows next to the search results.

Every time I write a blog post, I submit manually via webmaster tools "Fetch as Google" so that it gets indexed immediately. That way, the date google shows matches the date I published the article.

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by PeterisP on Monday October 01, 2018 @04:03AM (#18110783)
Ignore the claimed creation date, and use the earliest date that you know for certain, i.e. the time you crawled it.
Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by jacquesm on Monday October 01, 2018 @04:25AM (#18110870)
That only works if you happen to crawl the original first. Given that copies could be plentiful that's a losing game.

Content creators signing their content with a private key would be a better idea.

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by icebraining on Monday October 01, 2018 @04:51AM (#18110959)
Content creators signing their content with a private key would be a better idea.

How would that help? Wouldn't the copier simply sign with their own key?

Maybe Google should run a timestamping service. It could be stateless: send an hash of the content, get it back timestamped and signed, then include it in the page before publishing it.

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by jacquesm on Monday October 01, 2018 @04:58AM (#18110985)
They could, but it would not be registered before the other one would be.

- create signature

- post signature, possibly publicly, (wow, maybe an actual use for a blockchain)

- post content

Anybody copying it could be proven to be a copyist.

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by icebraining on Monday October 01, 2018 @05:17AM (#18111080)
Right, you'd need something like the blockchain - ie, a timestamping server - to validate the posting date. But then you don't need a signature, just a hash. The advantage of using Google's timestamping service is that it wouldn't need to store the hash/signature, unlike the blockchain.
Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by Boulth on Monday October 01, 2018 @06:22AM (#18111355)
No, you don't need blockchain for that, just a good old RFC 3161 timestamping server, most big CAs run one and timestamp stuff for free.

Actually secure timestamping is already used by Windows to verify software signatures, even when the signing key expires: https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/47289/how-is-an...

Heck, you can even use Roughtime [0] to achieve secure timestamping as it uses digital signatures and allows you to provide a nonce. Even the design doc [1] mentions this use case:

> This means that Roughtime replies can be used as a time-stamping service, and thus that Roughtime servers can be used to check each other.

[0]: https://blog.cloudflare.com/roughtime/

[1]: https://roughtime.googlesource.com/roughtime

Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by JetSpiegel on Monday October 01, 2018 @06:25AM (#18111362)
- Change "a" to "а", hash changed - ... - Profit?
Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by icebraining on Monday October 01, 2018 @07:46AM (#18111735)
The hash is just to identify the individual article, so it can be timestamped. Google would still use its existing algorithms to decide if the two articles are copies or not.
Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by Natanael_L on Monday October 01, 2018 @10:46AM (#18112950)
The publication of the hash proves who came first (to the timestamping service). Content comparison can be done by other means than the hash.
Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by IncRnd on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:59AM (#18139917)
How could that possibly solve the problem of determining exact creation dates?
Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by jobigoud on Monday October 01, 2018 @03:58AM (#18110760)
Not sure why you are being downvoted. If we can't do it manually we can't automate it.
Re:How companies use fake sites, backdated articles to censo... by timClicks on Monday October 01, 2018 @07:13PM (#18117593)
No, I haven't and in a sense I'm relieved. I've certainly thought about it a lot and am glad that people are smarter than me haven't figured it out.