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Re:Questions by elorant on Sunday September 30, 2018 @07:49AM (#18105764)
Israel doesn't have long dark winters and yet they're the pioneers of innovation and start-up culture.
Re:Questions by petra on Sunday September 30, 2018 @09:02AM (#18105999)
I'm an Israeli and it comes from a few factors:

1. Israelis basically have no choice. If you want to make a good income, working hard in a technology startup(we have very few big tech companies) is one of the very few good options.

2. The army: at a very young age,a decent percentage of Israelis who join the army lead, in high value, high risk situations. That creates a sense of responsibility and strong ambition at a relatively early age.

The army is also a place where a lot of new tech is being developed , so people get exposure, and often in roles of major responsibility.

3. The Jewish people have lived among other people, in very hostile conditions, often forced to do banking(loans) and commerce at times when most people did agriculture. That forces a certain entrepreneurial spirit, and possibly higher intelligence(also witnessed by the higher rate of genetic illnesses in Ashkenazi Jews). That, plus a culture that always focused on learning(religiously).

Re:Questions by matwood on Sunday September 30, 2018 @10:44AM (#18106361)
> 2. The army: at a very young age,a decent percentage of Israelis who join the army lead, in high value, high risk situations. That creates a sense of responsibility and strong ambition at a relatively early age.

Summed up in one word - discipline. The glamorous myth of startups is just that, a myth. Some outliers go from zero to hero overnight, but most require slogging away day in and day out. Motivation can only last so long, and after it's gone all you have left is discipline. Military writings both current and historic routinely speak of discipline being the single most important aspect of achieving a goal.

Re:Questions by notdang on Sunday September 30, 2018 @10:22AM (#18106268)
>and possibly higher intelligence

Interesting what would happen if this is said about any other country

Re:Questions by tinco on Sunday September 30, 2018 @10:54AM (#18106410)
Obviously this discussion is a minefield. But there is some merit in asserting some relations there. In The Netherlands, Iranian and Afghani immigrants are often of a more privileged descent than Moroccan and Turkish immigrants, because of the reason of their migration. Moroccans and Turks generally migrated for manual labor, where Irani and Afghans usually fled religious oppression.

Of course this does not mean Dutch Iranians are smarter than Dutch Moroccans, but it could mean there might be more smart/entrepreneurial Iranians than Moroccans in The Netherlands.

These statistics might die out very quickly though, for example Turks are often already second or third generation, so many have been born in the privilege of The Netherlands.

Perhaps similarly, the second world war cost us a huge percentage of Jewish people, being privileged has meant having a larger chance of survival through moving to less dangerous countries (like the U.S.).

It doesn't mean Jewish people are smarter, it might mean though that you could find a bit more smart Jews in their population. Of course the second world war has already been a long time, so the effect might already be gone.

Re:Questions by dotancohen on Sunday September 30, 2018 @10:57AM (#18106423)
The problem is that people (Jews and non-Jews, Israelis and non-Israelis) really believe and expect it.

I'm probably average intelligence, but I've had it expressed to me by people who hardly know me that they expect that I'm brilliant or something because I'm an Ashkanazi Jew. Its one of those stigmas that get attached to any race, such as Russians drinking Vodka or Argentinians eating meat. I'm sure that there are sober Russians, vegetarians in Argentina, and there's me!

Re:Questions by jim777 on Sunday September 30, 2018 @12:05PM (#18106716)
It's not about nationality: Ashkenazi Jews in general -- Israeli or not -- tend to be smarter. ~20% of Nobel prize winners are Jews compared to less than 1% of the global population. So either there's a Jewish conspiracy (which some people believe...) or Jews tend to be smarter.

Some people would say that this is cultural. I doubt it -- I think it's genetic. Intelligence is a physical attribute determined by genes, just like every other physical attribute. It's really no different from the observation that Kenyans and Ethiopians win most marathons.

In general, we should expect different traits to be exhibited at different frequencies by different populations that were reproductively isolated in the past. This doesn't mean prejudice is okay. Not all Jews are smart, and not all Kenyans are going to win marathons. We can acknowledge these correlations without behaving in a prejudiced way toward individuals.

Most people would rather not talk about this. And that's certainly my rule of thumb for in-person conversations. But, hey, we're on the internet.

Re:Questions by curun1r on Sunday September 30, 2018 @06:09PM (#18108701)
> So either there's a Jewish conspiracy (which some people believe...) or Jews tend to be smarter.

You're assuming that intelligence is the determining factor in winning a Nobel prize, which seems spurious at best. Work ethic and training, particularly early in life seem, to me, like they'd be better predictors. I'd posit that Jewish culture is better at nurturing intelligence before I'd conclude that there's some ethnic superiority going on.

Re:Questions by jim777 on Sunday September 30, 2018 @08:15PM (#18109208)
You used the term "ethnic superiority". That's you making a value judgement about intelligence. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. Personally, I don't think intelligence is a good proxy for "value of a human being".

While there isn't a bullet-proof case, there is quite a bit of evidence for an ethnicity-intelligence correlation.

Re:Questions by curun1r on Sunday September 30, 2018 @09:05PM (#18109336)
You left off a key word when you took the term "ethnic superiority" out of context. I prefaced it with the word "some" to indicate that I was considering only a single dimension, intelligence. I said nothing about "value of being a human being," so don't put words in my mouth.

The only value judgement I was making is that higher intelligence is superior to lower intelligence and that Nobel prizes is an extremely poor proxy for intelligence.

Re:Questions by _emacsomancer_ on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:59PM (#18107351)
> It's really no different from the observation that Kenyans and Ethiopians win most marathons.

But don't most Kenyan and Ethiopian marathon winners also grow up in Kenya or Ethiopia? I.e. how do we discount at very least environmental factors (including, for instance, diet), even if you doubt cultural ones?

Re:Questions by jnbiche on Sunday September 30, 2018 @02:48PM (#18107673)
> But don't most Kenyan and Ethiopian marathon winners also grow up in Kenya or Ethiopia?

No. There is a hugely disproportionate number of Americans and British of Somali, Kenyan, and Ethiopian origin who excel in world class distance running (Adbirahman, Farah, and many more, including a big new wave of Somali American after).

Re:Questions by _emacsomancer_ on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:01AM (#18109956)
Interesting. That still wouldn't completely rule out environmental/cultural factors though, including diet and so on (e.g. maybe eating teff is good for long-distance runners).
Re:Questions by stef25 on Monday October 01, 2018 @05:01AM (#18110995)
I guess you've heard of The Bell Curve and the related controversy (check Sam Harris podcast with Charles Murray)?

Fwiw I don't think you're necessarily wrong about intelligence but from what I remember The Gene (Siddhartha Mukherjee) does have a few passages contradicting this theory. Also by questioning the validity of IQ tests.

Could it also not be that jews are just more motivated to get in to STEM fields and perform well, for cultural reasons or otherwise?

Similarly, Malcolm Gladwell mentions a theory about why "Asians are smarter" which according to him may be related to hard and smart work leading to bigger rice harvests, and other factors (see here https://www.cs.unh.edu/~sbhatia/outliers/outliers.pdf).

While I have zero interest in the cultural implications and all the moral panics surrounding these issues, I don't think intelligence being mostly down to genetics is a proven fact. I find it gets extremely complicated very quickly.

Genes are hugely influenced by their environmental (cultural) triggers and those should not be ignored.

Re:Questions by bnt on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:13PM (#18107092)
Jews were forced into banking, because they were forbidden to do agriculture or cattle back in Europe. Banking was considered dirty, so Christians didn't want to do it. Jews did what they were allowed - banking, philosophy, medicine, science - and they became masters of the craft.
Re:Questions by _emacsomancer_ on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:57PM (#18107338)
I thought it was also about usury not being allowed (for Christians, Jews, or Muslims) intrareligiously but only extrareligiously, i.e. Jews could loan money to Christians, but Christians couldn't loan money to Christians.
Re:Questions by repolfx on Monday October 01, 2018 @10:44AM (#18112925)
Yes. That's the usual story indeed. I'm not sure where the concept that banking was 'dirty' came from - I suspect that's mixing up banking with lending. Lending at interest was subject to religious prohibition for all but Jews who interpreted the Torah in a way that forbade lending only to other Jews. Thus Jewish people were not "forced" into banking because they were banned from agriculture (lol, how would that even work?) but rather, became bankers by default because it was highly profitable and others wouldn't do it for religious reasons.

This is the main reason for the ancient historical stereotypes linking Judaism and money/wealth/power/etc. And why names like Goldstein (gold stone) are considered Jewish names.

Re:Questions by novaRom on Sunday September 30, 2018 @04:16PM (#18108148)
>> and possibly higher intelligence

I heard that a lot of times from mostly uneducated people. All nations have equal level of intelligence. The difference might be access to education, environment, common wealth, and social inequality.

Re:Questions by taneq on Sunday September 30, 2018 @05:54PM (#18108645)
This seems like a dogmatic response rather than a reasoned one. All other aspects of human beings vary by region to some degree, why would intellectual be an exception?
Re:Questions by cambalache on Sunday September 30, 2018 @11:20PM (#18109794)
Source?

Edit: I would argue to the contrary, that there is a appreciable difference in average IQ between some countries which expresses itself among other things in GDP and quality of life. Perhaps the nature of this difference is based on things like nutrition, environment quality, pre-natal screening and care, so improvements in all these things will decrease the gap. If it happens that after all of that there is still a certain gap , who cares? As long as the citizens live in peace and relative prosperity.

Re:Questions by badpun on Monday October 01, 2018 @02:42PM (#18115577)
> All nations have equal level of intelligence

How do you know this?

Re:Questions by abalone on Sunday September 30, 2018 @11:46AM (#18106640)
By far the biggest factor is the over $130B of aid the U.S. has provided to Israel which directly nurtured the high technology industry.[1]

This is also true for the U.S. itself; Silicon Valley is largely a creation of Pentagon investment (see: DARPA).

[1] https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2018/03/unders...

Re:Questions by batty_alex on Sunday September 30, 2018 @08:01AM (#18105806)
As someone who has worked with teams from Israel, I'd like to hear more about this if you have good sources.

In my experience, it's been the opposite. They like to play office politics, focus on keeping work off their plate, and they're not really team players.

I may just have a bad sample of Israel tech workers, though.

Re:Questions by Zanni on Sunday September 30, 2018 @08:19AM (#18105857)
Start-up Nation: The Story of Israel's Economic Miracle makes a good case. [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-up_Nation

Re:Questions by fit2rule on Sunday September 30, 2018 @12:37PM (#18106865)
I have also experienced this - in addition, rampant nationalism is an issue when dealing with Israeli companies, in my experience (5 different customers, similar problems..)

Where I think Israeli tech startups get most of their mojo, is desperation. Their culture involves so much struggle and effort .. and I think the reaction to it at a personal level, results in the laziness, non-team-playing, political problems.

Re:Questions by elorant on Sunday September 30, 2018 @08:34AM (#18105900)
I didn't comment on how good or bad they're to work with but on the assumption that weather conditions can affect productivity.
Re:Questions by AsyncAwait on Sunday September 30, 2018 @08:03AM (#18105815)
Just because something is a factor doesn't mean there can't be other factors that lead to a similar outcome.
Re:Questions by ynv on Sunday September 30, 2018 @07:56AM (#18105784)
Well, their summers are kinda long and hot.