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Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by arountheworld on Saturday September 29, 2018 @05:49AM (#18099543)
> drugs that hit the same brain receptors as cannabis but are more potent and addictive

Okay, why there are using cannabis as an example and not other substances that react with those receptors, like chocolate? It is better as they abstained from using the term "synthetic marijuana", but you can still sense an agenda. Things like this put me off from reading news pieces. If I see so much foul language and twisting things to put a certain angle on the topic - on the topic I am fairly knowledgeable, then how much propaganda is being served in the topic I know little about? This is a disgrace to journalism. Apologies for my rant.

Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by sgtcodfish on Saturday September 29, 2018 @07:47AM (#18099854)
The Economist has been editorially pro-legalization of cannabis for a long time so any propagandizing agenda you think you're "sensing" just isn't there; in fact their agenda is literally the complete opposite of what you "sensed".

They pretty obviously used "cannabis" here because these products were designed + marketed as legal cannabis replacements or alternatives. They're called "synthetic cannabinoids" for a reason. I hardly think that using "cannabis" as a comparison to "synthetic cannabinoids" is "twisting things", or using "foul language", either.

Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by tree_of_item on Saturday September 29, 2018 @04:57PM (#18102776)
> Okay, why there are using cannabis as an example and not other substances that react with those receptors, like chocolate?

Because these substances are obviously and explicitly marketed as substitutes for cannabis. Cannabis is the relevant comparison. There's no agenda, just reality. You're being very dramatic calling this a "disgrace" when it's really very mundane.

Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by jm__87 on Saturday September 29, 2018 @08:40PM (#18103856)
Based one the effects of the drug described in the article, cannabis hardly sounds like a relevant comparison. Cannabis users don't end up in the hospital with psychosis and run around naked for 3 hours...
Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by tree_of_item on Saturday September 29, 2018 @10:19PM (#18104111)
Cannabis is a relevant comparison because the only reason people are using this stuff is due to cannabis prohibition. Are you really not getting this part? Cannabis being illegal is a large part of why they are making spice in the first place.

You are correct that the effects are much more dangerous than those of cannabis; that's why so many people in this thread are saying cannabis prohibition as had a negative effect in this particular way.

Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by jm__87 on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:13PM (#18126949)
As someone who has smoked pot in the past and has spent a lot of time around people who have done a ton of different drugs, it would make no sense to me to substitute this drug for pot. The effects are totally different. The reason most people smoke pot is to chill out and relax, not lose their minds. The reason people do other drugs is to feel the effects those drugs give. You don't substitute one thing for another just because the ingredients are similar. You substitute it because it has similar effects.
Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by gaspoweredcat on Saturday September 29, 2018 @06:30AM (#18099648)
its actually something of a bit of poor research on behalf of the article combined with a slight naming issue, originally "spice" when sold as a commercial product initially contained 2 synthetic cannabinoids JWH-018 and one other which i cant remember off hand.

later on other brands using different mixes came about one of the biggest being called "Black Mamba" this too was generally a mixture of synthetic cannabinoids sprayed onto smokable herbs, but then came the psychoactives bill which banned most of these chemicals meaning that they started to be produced illicitly and also led to the mixture of chemicals used in them being even further twisted.

this brings us to now and while fringe analogs of synthetic cannabinoids are no doubt still being used and by no means are they likely to be good for you the problem chemical is actually more likely to be MDPV or a derivative of it (methylenedioxypyrovalerelone if memory serves correctly) otherwise known as Monkey dust or simply "Dust" it wouldnt surprise me to see some form of dissociative analog in there too, something like 3MeO-PCP

MDPV is not a cannabinoid but more a stimulant of sorts which gives a very short high with very long acting unpleasant side effects. of course its highly unlikely we will ever know exactly what is in that crap but one thing is for sure you have one and only one thing to blame for the problem and that is the prohibition of other substances proven to be less harmful. were we to make a sensible move the likes of the one Portugal has it would likely alleviate the problem greatly, even simply legalizing the sale and recreational use of cannabis would likely greatly reduce the problem (whilst also creating businesses, jobs, tax revenue and tourism to name but a few economic benefits)

how do i know all this stuff? experience i have no shame in admitting i became interested in psychoactive chemicals at one point in my 20s and spent a few years deeply researching and trying a staggering number of chemicals both the classical psychoactives we all know and a large number of "research chemicals" MDPV was in fact one of said chemicals, i only did it once and i did it via insuffluation it gave me a 15min buzz followed by 3 days of no sleep, twitchyness, paranoia and toward the end a similar situation to amphetamine psychosis including hallucinations, from what im told smoking it only serves to intensify all of this. of all the chemicals i tried there were few i could label as fundamentally "bad" but MDPV was definitely one of those few

i fully agree with you that at this stage any comparison to cannabis is pretty idiotic, not only do we not actually know what is in the stuff but even if it were synthetic cannabinoids and nothing else theyre likely now so far removed from the original substance that they have totally different effects just look at what happens when you modify something like amphetamine, both MDMA and Meth are amphetamine analogs but you dont see many people homeless, toothless and brainless due to an MDMA addiction. a quick read of PIHKAL or TIKHAL will show you just how much the effects of a chemical can change with only a tiny modification

its a shame that people arent more biochemically aware or theyd know that articles like this are packed with poor information but sadly thats not the case so we end up with people demonising other substances based on poor information from supposedly trustworthy sources

Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by DanBC on Saturday September 29, 2018 @07:40AM (#18099839)
It's amazing to me that people insist their personal experience with drugs will apply to the entire population - even to people with genetic disposition to addiction combined with poorly treated mental illness who are living on the streets.
Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by gaspoweredcat on Saturday September 29, 2018 @08:23AM (#18099963)
by no means am i saying that everyone will have the same experience as me, in fact im a rather rare example as despite having experimented with some of what are classed as the most addictive substances there are i have developed no addiction, nor was i doing it to escape, hide from something or console myself, i did what i did out of pure curiosity.

however you are right, drugs affect everyone differently but its a pretty established fact that the chemicals contained in these "products" are far from harmless and all evidence points to them being more dangerous from a mental health standpoint than most classic psychoactives

Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by drewmol on Saturday September 29, 2018 @08:43AM (#18100029)
One note about synthetic marijuana, I always thought the existence of it's market demand was primarily due not to prohibition/absence but the asinine legal, financial or social consequences that can come along with failing a drug test for THC... (losing a job, professional license, education funding, etc). Of course, in the US at least, those mostly arose after, as a reaction to prohibition.

TL;DR. I think very few people smoke(d) Spice (TM)? because they simply couldn't access marijuana.

Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by gaspoweredcat on Sunday September 30, 2018 @04:08AM (#18105140)
actually here in the UK Spice first came about around 2008, a time in the UK known to those who smoked weed as the "Gritweed Epidemic" in an unscrupulous attempt to make higher profits growers were spraying weed with spray on glass frosting and other nasty substances that looked like crystals but were actually highly unpleasant often harmful substances

This became so bad that at its height it was near impossible to buy unadulterated cannabis, then suddenly a product pops up in head shops that seems to get people stoned, costs pretty much the same as weed and wasnt full of glass/silica/paint, it became an instant success

this of course led people to realise there were other such chemicals capable of getting you high in some way that were also not yet illegal with the likes of 4-methylmethcathinone aka mephedrone becoming hugely popular because it was powerful, easily available and cheap,

the HUGE danger this brought with it was that there was (arguably still is) a belief by those who dont know anything about the chemistry that as its not illegal it must be "safe" this of course was not the case at all

In the US it may have been more for that reason but its actually quite a rare occurence that people are drug tested in the workplace here unless you work a mission critical job like say an air traffic controller, i have never been personally subjected to a drugs test in 2 decades of employment

Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by sudosteph on Saturday September 29, 2018 @04:39PM (#18102676)
I was a freshman in college right when spice/JWH was first catching on, and from first hand experience I know at least 5 people who used it semi regularly even though they weren't expecting a drug test. The fact that you could get it cheaply from the headshop accross the street and carry it with you risk free was the main selling point then. Also it didn't smell like weed and you could keep it in the dorm without stinking the place up. Eventually we started learning about the crazy health risks and the law started catching up with banning the most common JWH formulations, and it wasn't worth the risk. Fortunately most folks in my friend group were able to move off campus and make safe connections with weed dealers and either do that, or sober up completely. But it definitely had appeals to people who could not easily get marijuana or didn't like the sketchness of getting it in a prohibition state.
Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by gaspoweredcat on Sunday September 30, 2018 @04:09PM (#18108112)
seems the situation was different in the US but much is, you guys had an analogs law long before us and also some states with legal cannabis.

thankfully for the tech savvy not too many years later came the advent of the dark web markets such as silk road which gave people access to clean weed fairly easily. say what you will but i believe the dark net markets are actually a force for good, although there isnt the "community spirit" which existed in the original silk road, there were many good people on there

now im sure there are those reading this thinking "good people?? these are drug dealers! theyre scum!" but that isnt the case, especially in those days, people cared about providing clean quality substances to people who wanted them, no one was "pushing" anything and almost everything was of the finest quality. again its an issue of the image the media has created. its a shame im so terribly poor at writing in general or i could write a fairly interesting book or article about this sort of stuff

Re:Spice is throwing up problems not seen with other drugs by sudosteph on Monday October 01, 2018 @05:29PM (#18116987)
Yeah, I just read your comment about people in the UK adulterating marijuana with random junk and it just blows my mind that anyone could do that. I definitely see how that would drive people towards synthetics.

I know what you mean about community though. Where I'm from most of the dealers are the stereotypical goofy hippies who seem to worship cannabis and see it as a cure for anything. It's a little obnoxious to listen to them rant sometimes, but at least I know they genuinely aren't going to poison anybody for a few bucks, they just really like weed.