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Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by Carpetsmoker on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @09:21AM (#18066081)
What's the alternative to Android though? Apple has its own well-documented issues, as well as a rather large price-tag. I just use my phone for maps and some chat services, don't need a very fancy phone. Even the iPhone 7 is listed at £449, which is already £150 more than I paid for my Sony Xperia.

I wish stuff like HP WebOS or Meego was still alive, but as far as I know, Apple and Google are the only serious players in town at the moment :-(

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by turtle4 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @10:08AM (#18066398)
There are no perfect alternatives, just imperfect ones.

Apple has their own issues, but they've claimed that their business is selling you a device and software and media to run on it, and making their money from that as opposed to reselling your data. Everything they've been doing lately supports that stance, and they've already recognized it as a differentiation, hence the way they have been up-playing the privacy features of their devices lately. Since they aren't selling you as much after the fact, they are going to charge you more up-front, and since they make their money selling software, they're obsessed with controlling the marketplace.

Google gives away software and media, and sells your personal data and advertising. They're showing increasingly that they don't care about your privacy if it affects their bottom line.

You have to decide which of those business models you support, and then support it. There's no third model where a business gives everything away and cares about your privacy. That's inconsistent with a bottom line of making money, and at the end of the day that is what the business is trying to do.

For a while Google gave the impression that they cared, until they established a large enough market, and now you're seeing them make the natural transition. They've grew their cash cow by giving away stuff, now they are milking it.

Any rational company with their business model is going to do the same thing though, so if you jump ship to another ecosystem now selling you a business model that is too good to be true, don't be surprised down the line when that proves to be the case.

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by binomialxenon on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @02:06PM (#18068884)
Google does make a ton of money from ads and tracking, but how do they not "sell software and media" too? They sell apps and media in the same manner that Apple does.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by reitanqild on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @02:23PM (#18069018)
Abusing users isn't OK just because they've found additional ways to extract money from users.

Disclaimer: I was a Google fanboy until a few years ago and I disliked but trusted Google until a couple of weeks ago. Now I don't know what to do but at least I've finally got around to switching my search habits.

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by binomialxenon on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @03:05PM (#18069406)
Oh I agree, absolutely not. I'm against Google and don't use their software. I just thought that the parent comment wasn't very accurate as it characterized Apple as selling apps and media and Google as doing neither of those things.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by canalmighty on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @03:24PM (#18069613)
I think it's more like:

Apple: We sell you device/app for $X

Google: We sell you device/app for $X-Y, but we make our $Y back by selling you ad data

Huawei: Hold me beer.

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by reitanqild on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:37AM (#18083849)
Sorry I misunderstood your original comment :-|
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by eridius on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @04:57PM (#18070419)
Google has relatively few ways to actually give them money directly for software and media. There's Google Apps (assuming you aren't a grandfathered free customer from back when it was free), and I guess YouTube Red, and, um.... is there any other way to actually pay money to Google for services rendered? I honestly can't think of another option.

(I'm ignoring their hardware here because of course that's not free, and I don't think it's even intended to be a significant source of revenue anyway)

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by Beldin on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:30PM (#18070649)
Don't they take a cut from any transaction in the Play store?

In stores around here, you can buy gift cards with a Google logo on it (play store credit). That's about as direct a way of giving them money as i can think of.

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by eridius on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:45PM (#18070774)
They do, but I wouldn't consider that to be the customer paying Google directly. There's a reason why people usually use the word "tax" to refer to this (and Apple's cut on their store).

I suppose buying a gift card is technically giving Google money directly, but that isn't the same thing as payment for services rendered, it's just exchanging USD for Google Play credit, which you then spend on apps. Or in other words, you get the exact same service that you do if you skip the gift card and just pay for apps at the point of sale.

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by binomialxenon on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @06:50PM (#18071222)
>Google has relatively few ways to actually give them money directly for software and media.

Doesn't Google sell music, e-books, and movies/TV through Google Play? They also have Google Play Music as a subscription service. I was counting the Play Store as buying applications from Google, although it isn't Google's first-party software.

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by eridius on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @07:34PM (#18071467)
They do, but the context we're talking about is paying Google for Google software, not using Google as a storefront for buying other people's software.

I didn't realize Google Play had their own subscription music service. Good to know.

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by BryanBigs on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:01PM (#18072391)
You Tube TV. It's almost ready for the average couch potato, and certainly good enough if you watch 3 hrs at most of TV a week.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by eridius on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:15PM (#18072446)
Google offers 2 different paid YouTube products? Wow, that's not confusing at all...
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by JulienSchmidt on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @09:44AM (#18066229)
Android (the Android Open Source Project) itself is not the Problem. It's the lock-in ecosystem that Google tries to establish with the Google Services Framework, Play Store and the like. What is missing, is an open and privacy-friendly alternative to GSF. Without GSF we don't have efficient push notifications (Firebase Cloud Messaging), a geolocation provider, a maps API etc.

Personally, I have been using microG (https://microg.org/) instead of GSF on my phone for many years now. However, that is still just a partial solution. While it does its best to be privacy-friendly and does not have any integrated tracking / analytics like GSF, it still has to use Google's servers for push notifications, thus tracking is still possible to some degree.

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by snaky on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @08:58PM (#18071831)
> Without GSF we don't have efficient push notifications

"How Tutanota replaced Google’s FCM with their own notification system (f-droid.org)" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17945116

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by rattray on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:26AM (#18067122)
how is the product quality of microG? if a user is happy with GSF, will they be disappointed with microG?
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by JulienSchmidt on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:27PM (#18067776)
microG is certainly not perfect and I wouldn't recommend it to the average user. Expect some things to not work or even certain apps to crash. It's a techie-solution for people who value their privacy highly.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by neuronic on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @09:43AM (#18066223)
> Even the iPhone 7 is listed at £449, which is already £150 more than I paid for my Sony Xperia.

In my own personal experience that would be some really well invested £150...

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by rebolek on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:57PM (#18070864)
So I don't have to be poor to not be spied on. Got it. If I can afford just some cheap-ass phone, I deserve to be spied on.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by neuronic on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @03:59AM (#18073746)
I didn't say that. Complain with Android manufacturers or get a 5S or 6 series iPhone then.

Apple isn't responsible for the other manufacturers bullshit. At least Apple provides brand new OS software for 5 year old phones.

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by karmelapple on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @10:08AM (#18066396)
What, specifically, are Apple’s well documented issues? They have fought for user privacy in court cases and in the court of public opinion over the last couple of years.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by ummonk on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @10:17AM (#18066466)
The iPhone 7 will likely be supported with security updates for a lot longer than the Sony Xperia.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by skykooler on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @10:41AM (#18066676)
SailfishOS is still around, which is pretty much the spiritual successor to Meego. That said, even in Finland it has a tiny fraction of the market share of Android and iOS.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by AzMoo_ on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:22PM (#18070600)
You can't even buy Sailfish outside of the EU and it only works on specific devices right now.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by cmurf on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:35PM (#18070692)
You can run Lineage OS without installing gapps. It's all the Google apps, including Play, that does all the tracking. I'm not 100% certain, but I see references in the bugreport log to dm-verity so I'm pretty sure it's doing cryptographically verified boot.

And then the next question is what are the alternative store options and which is the best?

Google searching (oops! irony!) I found aptoide.com, and found they have a lot of apps: Firefox, Firefox Focus, Lastpass, Expedia, Chime Bank, etc. I don't know how their build and distribution system ensures safe binaries - didn't check it out.

I recently dropped Google Maps in favor of OsmAnd, and I'm still having growing pains. You have to download maps offline, it's not on demand. It looks like I only get 7 downloads for free. I haven't checked pricing. I'm not sure what happens if I do a phone reset, if I get a new stack of downloads or not. Local searches are super screwy, listing things like delis, pizza, hardware store, in other towns but not my own town. It's...not like Google Maps.

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by zanny on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @10:15AM (#18066443)
You can use Android without Google. Just get Lineage and don't install gapps.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by ktpsns on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:40PM (#18070737)
I'm quite surprised how many up-to-date applications can be installed via APK files or alternative markets (F-Droid) and work. For instance, thinking of Threema or Whatsapp, two continously maintained applications which do not inevitably depend on GApps.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by kelnos on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:21PM (#18070594)
How is the experience, though? Do you find that most mainstream apps run without issues? Or do you need to exclusively depend on one of the OSS app ecosystems like F-Droid?
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by cmurf on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:37PM (#18070706)
Google tracks you via Play Services. And any Google application comes with Play. So if you're trying to get away from Google tracking, you have to get completely out of the eco system including Play Store. So yeah F-Droid (haven't used it) or what I just mentioned in another answer, Aptoide (haven't used it but searched for some common apps and found them).
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by kelnos on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:49PM (#18070801)
Sure, I get that. But everything is a trade off. I'm probably not as concerned about the privacy issues inherent in Play & GSF, but I'm at least somewhat concerned. Just trying to figure out what exactly I'd be giving up, and in what ways I'd make my life more difficult. (Obviously that's a pretty me-specific thing, so I'm probably not gonna get a great answer here. But I think it's worth thinking about.)
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by ealhad on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @09:44AM (#18066233)
LineageOS, and other custom Android distributions without Google services.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by prolikewh0a on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @10:55AM (#18066785)
Doesn't LineageOS still use Google Play Services?
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by binomialxenon on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @02:08PM (#18068900)
Google Play Services and other nonfree Google software can be installed on top of LineageOS, but LineageOS does not include them in its installation. I've used Lineage extensively with F-Droid as my apps source.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by groovybits on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:30AM (#18067183)
No. The only part of Google associated with LOS is that it uses G's DNS servers.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by alain94040 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @10:35AM (#18066631)
[Apple] a rather large price-tag

I can't resist the sarcasm. In that thread, others argue vehemently that you should sacrifice your money for your values. So arguing that the more privacy-conscious phone is too expensive, is... an unexpected argument :-)

Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by ppeetteerr on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:36PM (#18070705)
That 150 extra is paid for by Google's ad network.
Re:Chrome 69 will keep Google Cookies when you tell it to de... by jeremiem on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @06:32PM (#18071113)
Hopefully PureOS on a Librem 5