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Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by petre on Saturday September 22, 2018 @01:21PM (#18046871)
Maybe they shouldn't have taxed the crap out of these companies in the first place?

Most succesful EU companies are 100+ years old due to taxes, bureaucracy and big company bullying. I find posts about the startup scene in most if not all EU countries laughable. Western Europe is too regulated and expensive (taxes) and Eastern Europe is too corrupt and politically unstable. Southern Europe is too hot and distracting. Maybe it has mafia as well. 20% VAT? Come on, that's outright theft. Hungary as 27% VAT. Portugal has 23% VAT. France has 20% but they also tax the crap out of companies and private citizens, especially if you're well off. Germany is over regulated, even the dogs barking hours is regulated. How do you expect tech startups to survive in this environment? Oh wait there's Ireland which gets lots of rain (people are cool working indoors) and has small taxes, except for VAT which is 23%. That one could work.

Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by raverbashing on Saturday September 22, 2018 @03:00PM (#18047442)
What does VAT has to do with it? VAT (as sales tax) is on the buyer.

Yes, in the US you can have something like 5%/10%. But it's not the main price determiner.

Also several company regulations don't exist for companies < 50 employees. Same as the US/Canada

I believe entrepreneurial and investment culture is a more important drive of innovation and startups than regulations. And yes, fewer people will give you an Angel investment in Europe for a murky business plan, while in the Valley you might get 100k for showing something in your laptop to an Angel over coffee.

Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by pavlov on Saturday September 22, 2018 @01:53PM (#18047048)
Taxes in USA are not meaningfully lower, except for state-local sales taxes vs. European VAT.

But the thing about VAT is that it’s unimportant for most businesses. When selling B2B you just subtract all the VAT you paid from the VAT you owe. The only kind of business that is seriously affected by VAT is highly price-sensitive B2C, and technology startups usually aren’t that.

Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by tonfa on Saturday September 22, 2018 @04:21PM (#18047784)
> The only kind of business that is seriously affected by VAT is highly price-sensitive B2C, and technology startups usually aren’t that.

Even there I'm not sure it matters, unlike corporate tax it's a local tax, so it's still an even playing field and it will have the same impact to everyone in the market.

Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by jstanley on Saturday September 22, 2018 @02:18PM (#18047205)
I don't think you understand VAT.

If you buy some computers for $100, do some work, and manage to sell your services for $1000, you get to reclaim $20 of VAT but you have to pay $200 of VAT, so a 20% VAT rate costs this hypothetical business 18% of its revenue, which is hardly "unimportant".

And a typical tech company would be taking in far more than 10x in revenue than what they are spending on VAT-able goods.

EDIT: But see below.

Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by pavlov on Saturday September 22, 2018 @03:55PM (#18047687)
Who buys your $1000 service? Most likely another business. (I don’t know about you, but I don’t need $1000 software services at home.)

If you’ve ever done business in the EU, you know that prices are negotiated and quoted excluding VAT. The VAT rate literally is totally irrelevant to B2B pricing.

If you’re selling B2B from one EU country to another, you don’t even need to collect VAT. Another reason why its rate is irrelevant to EU startups.

Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by cuban-frisbee on Saturday September 22, 2018 @03:40PM (#18047623)
He litterally just said it only matters in a B2C setting and not a B2B.

Can you name even one AI product that is sold directly to consumers? Most if not all is B2B and there VAT is not used as it is a tax on consumption levied at the consumer, not other businesses.

Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by jstanley on Saturday September 22, 2018 @03:45PM (#18047648)
Ah, TIL, I didn't know VAT was not charged when selling to a business! So it was I who did not understand how VAT works :)

I thought pavlov was under the impression that the VAT you pay when buying automatically cancels out with the VAT you charge when selling, so the only people who VAT affects are end users.

Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by petre on Saturday September 22, 2018 @03:49PM (#18047667)
Amazon Alexa? Wait, the AI there is meant for vendor lock in. Roomba vacuum cleaners? Spotify? As a business you stll have to buy stuff to recover VAT and sell your product 20% inflated.
Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by cuban-frisbee on Saturday September 22, 2018 @07:12PM (#18048491)
On of the most succesful EU businesses (spotify) does not seem to support the assertion that VAT is a undue burden. Also I don't know if spotify uses their own tech or if they are uses stuff from another vendor.

Do also remember that all your competitors are bound by the same rules, so from a purely economical standpoint prices in a given country with VAT will just appear x% higher accross the board, and then the real question is more of disposable income.

To be perfectly honest I am no expert in VAT, but I do know that a country like Denmark with 25 % VAT is also ranked in the top 5 countries to do business in.

Also don't know what you mean by "As a business you stll have to buy stuff to recover VAT" but oh well maybe you can clarify.

Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by jstanley on Saturday September 22, 2018 @07:33PM (#18048562)
> prices in a given country with VAT will just appear x% higher across the board, and then the real question is more of disposable income.

In other words, "if you can't make at least a 20% profit on the value you add, you're not allowed to make a profit at all". This stifles innovation at the margin.

Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by PeterStuer on Saturday September 22, 2018 @01:49PM (#18047015)
There is a large difference in Europe between the taxation rate and what is paid in practice by corporations. In several EU countries the 'real' taxation for industry is close to 0%. Why do you think companies like Google, Skype, Apple etc slush all their profits through EU subsidiaries?
Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by jstanley on Saturday September 22, 2018 @02:16PM (#18047187)
> There is a large difference in Europe between the taxation rate and what is paid in practice by corporations.

This is only true if you're big enough. If you're a small business, you pay the inflated rate or go to prison.

Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by pgtan on Saturday September 22, 2018 @02:04PM (#18047120)
Finally, the new Euro-socialism "discovered" its old enemy on the other side of the ocean again.

Just searching for "VW Steuern" reveals:

https://www.google.com/search?q=vw+steuern&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

"Volkswagen nutzt Luxemburg zum Steuernsparen"

"VW darf Milliarden-Bußgeld teilweise von Steuer absetzen"

"Der VW-Konzern nutzt ein fragwürdiges Steuersparmodell"

"Grüne wollen wissen: Wo zahlt Volkswagen wie viel Steuern"

"VW-Skandal: Steuern hinterzogen"

"Steueroasen: Wie deutsche Großkonzerne den Steuerzahler um ..."

Re:Can the EU become another AI superpower? by snaky on Saturday September 22, 2018 @01:54PM (#18047049)
Germany will be good while Eastern Europe have brains willing to relocate, and US have H-1B quotes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6648443