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Re:Titans of Mathematics Clash Over Epic Proof of ABC Conjec... by zbobet2012 on Thursday September 20, 2018 @05:40PM (#18035687)
This is a common objection from mathematicians, that is very understandable. I think both Lamport and Voevodsky’s have made important contributions here [1]. Namely in presenting idea from software that we use to manage _exactly_ your complaint.

The way in which mathematicians structure proofs has fallen behind the ways in which software engineers structure programs (which are isomorphic to proofs). The question is then to develop languages which encompass these modern methods.

This is really the goal of the homotopy type theory project, to provide a language which is both machine checkable and easy to use informal reasoning with.

[1]https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/write-2...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOY-XE29_d8

Re:Titans of Mathematics Clash Over Epic Proof of ABC Conjec... by zbobet2012 on Thursday September 20, 2018 @05:56PM (#18035769)
It's also important to note that this situation is _precisely_ what Voevodsky wanted to prevent:

For nearly a decade, Voevodsky has been advocating the virtues of computer proof assistants and developing univalent foundations in order to bring the languages of mathematics and computer programming closer together. As he sees it, the move to computer formalization is necessary because some branches of mathematics have become too abstract to be reliably checked by people.

“The world of mathematics is becoming very large, the complexity of mathematics is becoming very high, and there is a danger of an accumulation of mistakes,” Voevodsky said. Proofs rely on other proofs; if one contains a flaw, all others that rely on it will share the error. [1]

Most mathematicians still think of machine check for dealing with a large _number_ of cases; but Homotopy Type Theories goal is to manage abstract complexity not just size.

[1]https://www.quantamagazine.org/univalent-foundations-redefin...

Re:Titans of Mathematics Clash Over Epic Proof of ABC Conjec... by danharaj on Thursday September 20, 2018 @05:59PM (#18035788)
I own a copy of the HoTT book :)

> Namely the way in which mathematicians structure proofs has fallen behind the ways in which software engineers structure programs (which are isomorphic to proofs).

The problem is that the required structure for writing sophisticated mathematical proofs is much more demanding than even a piece of software as complex as the Linux kernel. Part of that is because software as such, when interpreted as proofs, don't verify properties nearly as strong as a real theorem. The difference between a proof of `Integer -> Integer` and `Integer -> Odd Integer` is already a gulf the vast majority of software does not bridge.

We're just not there yet. Voevodsky's program is a great first step but just that: A first step. No one really knows what the next thousand steps will be. It's not straightforward at all.

Re:Titans of Mathematics Clash Over Epic Proof of ABC Conjec... by zbobet2012 on Thursday September 20, 2018 @07:00PM (#18036069)
I agree completely that the tooling is not there today.

However:

"The problem is that the required structure for writing sophisticated mathematical proofs is much more demanding than even a piece of software as complex as the Linux kernel. "

Mis-understands why and how we use the linux kernel. Linux isn't that difficult to understand really (both in LOC, and the abstractions it presents). It's simply a base which can be relied on that provides abstraction points we can interface with (both as software, _and_ hardware_).

The important part here is that not only does linux give us a reliable "library" of behavior, but it is one that is common and reuseable.

This "library" of behavior is something we've begun to see present itself in category theory. This is why so many modern papers start with "we show that there exists a isomorphism...".

The biggest thing _modern_ computing and libraries focuses on is composition of behavior. Aka functions that take functions. If a computational interpenetration of uni-valence is found we will have similar capabilities in math (e.g. making it possible to simplify the process of moving between isomorphic structures). I believe this would be a major stride towards broader use of machine verification.

Re:Titans of Mathematics Clash Over Epic Proof of ABC Conjec... by roenxi on Friday September 21, 2018 @02:15AM (#18037523)
> The way in which mathematicians structure proofs has fallen behind the ways in which software engineers structure programs (which are isomorphic to proofs).

If we accept that a software program is isomorphic to a proof, is there anything that isn't isomorphic with a proof?

I can prove Pythogoras' theorem with a diagram, so by extension anything in the physical world is a manifestation of mathematical theory and, since it exists, is isomorphic with a trivial proof for something.

Re:Titans of Mathematics Clash Over Epic Proof of ABC Conjec... by chriswarbo on Saturday September 22, 2018 @12:18AM (#18044423)
I'm inclined to agree with you; though the key word here is "trivial".

Types are propositions, and programs are proofs of their types. Unfortunately most programs are overly-complicated proofs of trivial propositions (when looked at from the mathematical side of curry-howard; of course what's actually the case is that we tend to only use types to specify a tiny part of what our programs are meant to do).

In an untyped language every expression has the same type (which we might call `Thing`, and contains integers, strings, functions, etc.) so in the curry-howard sense every expression is proof of the same trivial proposition.

I'm inclined to think of the laws of physics (whatever they are) as a programming language, and physical systems as programs running in that language. On first impression, it doesn't seem like physics is typed; hence every physical system is a proof of a trivial proposition (essentially: physical things can exist). It would be interesting to hear a counterargument though.

Note that in these cases it's the types/propositions which are trivial, not necessarily the programs/proofs. Consider that we could, if we wanted, prove a pretty trivial proposition like `((A -> B) AND A) -> B` in a roundabout way that involved applications of Fermat's last theorem. I tend to call such things "(over)complicated", rather than "complext", since their complexity isn't inherent or required.

Re:Titans of Mathematics Clash Over Epic Proof of ABC Conjec... by ur-whale on Friday September 21, 2018 @03:31AM (#18037838)
>I can prove Pythogoras' theorem with a diagram

I don't think I agree with this statement. As a matter of fact, I've always had a deep unease with so-called "geometric proofs", where a succession of visual transformations of a diagram are used to prove a theorem.

You can certain explain the intuition behind the proof of Pythagoras theorem with a diagram, and there's huge pedagogic value in doing that.

But to me it isn't a formal proof until it has been codified in a language that a computer can walk from start to end making sure each step is valid.

Re:Titans of Mathematics Clash Over Epic Proof of ABC Conjec... by roenxi on Friday September 21, 2018 @04:13AM (#18038024)
scratches head I'm pretty sure I can come up with a codified language proof that you will accept, then define a mapping between the language and transformations of a diagram. And while not an expert on isomorphism, but I'm pretty sure that makes the visual proof isomorphic with the codified language and hence valid (and, indeed, computable).

Basically, although code and proofs are in a sense isomorphic, I think everything and proofs are isomorpic in the same sense. So claiming that proofs should be structured to the same standards as code because code is isomorphic to proof is a bit of a non-sequitur. Why not show the layout of my rock garden is isomorphic to code and hence proving something (my rock garden can be Turing complete) and then claim my rock garden should be structured like a program?

Basically, the idea that the structure mathematicians favour for proofs have fallen behind programmers laying out of code is not well substantiated and the idea that 'proofs are isomorphic to code' is not useful because it is far too broad.

Re:Titans of Mathematics Clash Over Epic Proof of ABC Conjec... by chriswarbo on Saturday September 22, 2018 @12:31AM (#18044453)
It's not so much that programs are isomorphic to proofs; it's that mathematics and programming are the same activity. It's essentially a historical accident that the people who practice this activity have ended up in different groups, and that those groups use different terminology for the same things ("program" vs "proof", "type" vs "proposition", "execute" vs "simplify", "tuple" vs "conjunction", "union" vs "disjunction", "function" vs "implication", "dependent function" vs "universal quantification", "interface" vs "existential", "programming language" vs "logical system", etc.).

All of the relationships between these are the same too (e.g. a program `p` has type `T`, iff the proof `p` proves the proposition `T`; the proof `w` proves that the existence of `x` implies the proposition `y AND z` iff the program `w` is a function which generates a tuple of `(y, z)` when given an argument implementing the interface `x`; and so on).

Mathematicians and programmers do care about different things. Mathematicians are more concerned with informally proving previously unknown results; which corresponds to something like learning that a type has a value by sketching some pseudocode. Programmers care deeply about how many steps their proofs (programs) take to simplify; how easy it is to modify a proof to prove a slightly different proposition, etc. Yet there are so many good ideas on each side that are immediately applicable (e.g. dependently typed languages take rigorous logical systems and view them as programming languages; proof engineering takes software engineering ideas and applies them to building and maintaining proofs).

I'm struggling to think of an activity involving rock gardens that corresponds precisely to, say, universal quantification.

Re:Titans of Mathematics Clash Over Epic Proof of ABC Conjec... by chriswarbo on Friday September 21, 2018 @11:54PM (#18044362)
Note that there are formal, machine-checkable languages to describe geometric proofs: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3899

Of course, that still leaves the same problem of explicit proofs being tedious, i.e. being able to prove pythagoras's theorem "with a diagram" does not mean being able to prove it "within an explicit, formalised diagram language".

Re:Titans of Mathematics Clash Over Epic Proof of ABC Conjec... by codethief on Thursday September 20, 2018 @07:33PM (#18036192)
Speaking of Lamport's "How to write a 21st-century proof" paper, here's a video of a great presentation he gave on this topic last year:

https://www.heidelberg-laureate-forum.org/blog/video/lecture...