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Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by faag39 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:43AM (#17966596)
Since this censored version of the search engine will only work in China, I don't see how they are "handing the future of the Internet" to them.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by 07d046 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:11AM (#17966749)
It's arguing that China could leverage Google's Chinese market access to influence how Google behaves around the world, sort of like how almost all airlines around the world now say Taiwan is part of China:

> Once Google’s new Chinese business is up and running, there will be nothing to stop Beijing from seeking to dictate how references to Taiwan are addressed not just in China but throughout the site globally. China may also demand to shape how protests in Taiwan, Hong Kong, or the mainland are addressed or what happens when people search for dissidents such as Liu Xiaobo or topics such as human rights. While Google executives may believe that their company would never accede to such requests outside of China’s borders, there are no guarantees. If China gains the leverage to shape how Google presents what Beijing considers to be sensitive topics throughout the rest of the world, it will deal a mortal blow to international principles of freedom of expression and thought.

Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by eastendguy on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:24AM (#17966807)
I wish I had a super-upvote button. That is exactly my concern... once Google's China revenue is a significant part of the revenue, exactly this will happen. The European car manufactures already do everything that China wants. But at least they do not run a search engine or newspaper.

"Proof:" Google for "Mercedes apologies to China after quoting Dalai Lama" in a tweet for its European customers.

Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by YouKnowBetter on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:49AM (#17966619)
I presume that is on the premissis that every other state / regime will be able to leverage that deal between Google & China to black out whatever they think is not PC in their country.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by xbmcuser on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:58AM (#17966675)
Most of them already do this the slippery slope was started with Europe with it's right to be forgotten US with its Dmca. It's funny how many people have forgotten this if those things can be censored by Google because of these countries laws why is results cencsoring for China under Chinese laws is any different.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by peteretep on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:01AM (#17966976)
Because Chinese laws are intended to stifle debate and oppress human rights, where the EU laws protect privacy, and the US ones protect intellectual property?
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by bushin on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:19AM (#17967046)
"It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter"
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by faag39 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:00AM (#17966678)
I live in the EU where there's no freedom of speech and Google and the rest of tech companies are already being told about what they have to censor. I don't see how this is anything new. It's only in the news because it's China.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by wildebaard on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:29AM (#17966831)
What makes you say there is no freedom of speech in the EU? I also live there but I do not experience it like that.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by pjc50 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:13AM (#17967020)
Of course this is nonsense. It's not completely unconstrained speech, but freedom of expression is right there in ECHR.

" Article 10 – Freedom of expression

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."

Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by dekhn on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:55AM (#17968781)
it's not free speech if you constrain it in the ways that clause 2 does (protection of health or morals).
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by yAnonymous on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:40AM (#17966874)
German here. Our government has pressured Facebook to allow private corporations (that of course are close to the government) to delete Facebook content -posts and pages with millions of followers- for political reasons as they see fit.

The legal process was completely removed. They use this to help their election campaigns by branding government critical content as extremist and having it removed without due process.

You'd think that when they remove content like that, they'd report the offenders to legal authorities -because after all, they are only allowed to remove content that is clearly illegal- but in most cases they don't. They just want the content gone and move on, which makes it very clear that this is just a censorship tool and their generous interpretation of illegal hate speech wouldn't hold up in any court.

Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by wildebaard on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:34AM (#17967118)
Well, if the definition of free speech is 'it should be allowed on Facebook' then that's a horrible definition :)

It does point toward a bigger issue, where Facebook is used and trusted by so many users that they do not access alternative sources of information.

Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by yAnonymous on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:38AM (#17967133)
No. The companies involved (Arvato/Bertelsmann) get to make their own rules. Facebook doesn't even have a say in this, although they're paying for it as required by the law. They were threatened with fines in the millions (up to 50 mil) if they didn't comply.

The situation is absurd. Facebook is legally required to pay for censorship by companies with close ties to the government.

Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by wildebaard on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @07:07AM (#17967269)
If I understand you correctly, this censorship only applies to Facebook. If that's correct, then I still do not agree with the statement 'there is no free speech' unless Facebook is your/the sole source of information. However, I do agree that it's problematic.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by undreren on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @07:11AM (#17967292)
Source?
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by yAnonymous on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:23AM (#17968382)
https://www.arvato.com/en/about/press/2018/facebook-and-arva...

Directly from the devil himself.

Arvato belongs to Bertelsmann. Here's a German article about how close they are to the government.

https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Lobbyismus-Koenig-Bertelsma...

Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by faag39 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:45AM (#17966902)
Saying something racist, homophobic, denying the holocaust, etc. can very well have you fined or even land you in prison.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by zapita on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:11AM (#17967012)
Ah, you mean there is free speech and also reasonably scoped restrictions on hate speech. I’m okay with that. Do you have an example to share that shows how that is a bad thing in practice? Because I’n having trouble finding one.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by yAnonymous on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:31AM (#17967110)
See my other post. Hate speech laws are actively used in Germany to manipulate political campaigns. The legal process has been removed and private organizations close to the government get to decide what's hate speech and what's not.

And that's exactly the problem with it: It cannot be clearly defined and everyone is offended by different things, which makes it a perfect tool to censor just about everything you want.

Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by zapita on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:48AM (#17967180)
Do you have an example to share? The comment I’m replying to is pretty specific about topics: homophobia and denying the holocaust. Do you feel those are reasonable things to include in a hate speech regulations?
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by yAnonymous on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @11:45AM (#17969919)
>Do you have an example to share?

Government critical pages with millions of followers were deleted, playing directly in the hands of the (re-elected) government.

I don't want to be the judge of what's reasonable and what's not. As you see, having any kind of hate speech laws can and will be abused and end in censorship and stupid political games, as almost anything can be labelled as hate speech. It only depends on the perspective.

Personally, I'd go with the American model of anything goes. I don't think it's great, but it's better than this. Hate speech laws don't change anything - there will always be people who say something stupid or something you don't like. I prefer offensive people any day to people who deliberately misinterpret things and paint themselves or others as victims to discredit their opponents.

Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by zapita on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:40PM (#17971714)
> there will always be people who say something stupid or something you don't like. I prefer offensive people any day to people who deliberately misinterpret things and paint themselves or others as victims to discredit their opponents.

Well, hate speech is not about offending people... It's about inciting violence. A good example would be a nazi or ISIS leader publishing a video calling on their followers to attack, say, Jews, homosexuals and journalists. Hate speech laws exist to forbid such communications, because they are likely to result in violence against others. Of course there are many cases which are less clear cut than my example, where it's debatable (and hotly debated) how much violence is actually caused... but that's very different from debating "offense" or "misunderstandings", which have nothing to do with hate speech laws.

> Government critical pages with millions of followers were deleted, playing directly in the hands of the (re-elected) government.

Can you give us sources on this please?

> As you see, having any kind of hate speech laws can and will be abused and end in censorship

Not really, you haven't provided any evidence or details.

Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by yAnonymous on Thursday September 13, 2018 @08:39AM (#17978092)
Here's about the most prominent example.

https://i.imgur.com/mY0iBWU.jpg

That's an earlier screenshot of the page. It had about 2 million likes at the end. They posted provocative content, government critical stuff, some of it true, some of it false and some of it utter nonsense. None of which is illegal. Welcome to election campaigns around 2018. It's not our fault they have sunk to such a low level, but that's what it is and there's no consolation price for being the good guy.

This page had more readers than all but the biggest printed newspapers, which is quite a feat. Then one day their page was disabled and later deleted.

No real person has been and would be prosecuted for what they did. Personally, I think their content was crap and didn't follow it, but that's besides the point. They did what most politicians and official newspapers do to get attention and clicks.

This was in the early days, when the law was in planning, but not officially passed. Since then, many other pages like that simply disappeared.

Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by zapita on Friday September 14, 2018 @04:23PM (#17990633)
So a facebook page was deleted. Are you sure this wasn’t Facebook enforcing their obscure and often-changing terms of service? What makes you think this was the German government enforcing hate speech laws?
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by faag36 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:56AM (#17967220)
If you have "hate speech regulations", then you don't have free speech. It doesn't matter if you think that's good or bad for you or for others.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by undreren on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @07:21AM (#17967344)
That depends what you mean with free speech. "I want to say anything I want, and no one can punish me for it" only makes sense if you believe your words have no consequences.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by batty_alex on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:12AM (#17967014)
Consider this perspective: that's protecting the freedoms of the people that are hurt by that kind of hate speech.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by lnsru on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:17AM (#17967043)
Sadly I cannot downvote this couple hours fresh troll account:-(
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by avaika on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:45AM (#17966907)
Cause other countries might say "Ha, we also want this cool censored version. Please remove all negative information about our government and whatever we don't like. Here's your money (optionally). Otherwise we will find a nice reason to ban you in our country". Especially those with authoritative regime.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by ctack on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:23AM (#17966803)
Beijing currently influences it's weaker trading partners(which is most of the developing world) on various political points. For example - Taiwan policy or Dalai Lama visits.

It's not hard to imagine China then asking them to use their "new and improved" version of Google too.

Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by jamespo on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:29AM (#17966832)
Slippery slope argument
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @12:24PM (#17970354)
Doesn't mean it's invalid. Some slopes are in fact slippery.
Re:Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China by muraiki on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:19AM (#17967050)
Downvoted because the entire article is about explaining this.