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Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by scarface74 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @11:39AM (#17892311)
Dependence on Windows is the most dangerous development for Microsoft. An 8GB RAM Windows Surface Go is less performant than an iPad with 2GB of RAM for consumers.

For the server, I recently had to write a process that takes messages from a queue in AWS and store it to a database. It ran well as a .Net Core based lambda running on a 256MB RAM Linux VM.

I did the same with a .Net Framesork app that inherited and the smallest EC2 instance we could use was one with 4GB RAM. It was barely usable. We had to upgrade to 8GB. Microsoft has been successful because of Moore’s law hid the increasing bloat of Windows. But once smartphones and low resource required operating systems became popular, they can’t compete.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by dylan604 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:12PM (#17892480)
Isn't there another quote from Bill Gates on not optimizing Windows because why pay for his engineers to makes things faster/smaller/efficient when RAM/CPU/HDD were outpacing by getting faster/larger/cheaper. Or is that an urban legend type of quote?

It makes sense business wise. Getting new features is sexy/sell-able. Refactoring existing/working code to be smaller/faster/secure/etc isn't.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by jmagar on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:08PM (#17894143)
You may be thinking of Spolsky:

‘As a programmer, thanks to plummeting memory prices, and CPU speeds doubling every year, you had a choice. You could spend six months rewriting your inner loops in Assembler, or take six months off to play drums in a rock and roll band, and in either case, your program would run faster. Assembler programmers don’t have groupies.’

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2007/09/18/strategy-letter-vi...

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by scarface74 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:23PM (#17892544)
Seeing that in 2008 a midrange laptop came with 4GB of RAM and 10 years later, a low end laptop - like the Surface Go - still only has 4GB of RAM and has less storage than my 10 year old laptop.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by tluyben2 on Sunday September 02, 2018 @04:31AM (#17896182)
Can you point to some? I am searching and even high end ones came with 2gb. If I search for midrange laptop and 2008 I get your comment of 16 hrs ago. In my (for sure limited) memory, 4gb was rare back then; high end laptops had it but I had to search for them and pay a lot. I definitely paid $3000$ for a Fujitsu with 4gb back then (I still have it, it still works and I have the receipt); best laptop ever but definitely not midrange.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by scarface74 on Monday September 03, 2018 @03:49PM (#17904516)
This is the laptop that I still have and was used as a Plex server up until a month ago.

https://www.cnet.com/products/dell-latitude-e6500/specs/

It came out in October 2008

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Dell-Latitude-E6500-Not...

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by dragontamer on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:32PM (#17892599)
I think that's more of a sign that most people don't need more than 4GB to 8GB of RAM, and that storage isn't about TB anymore but about speed (HDD vs SSD).

SSDs are roughly 100x faster than HDDs, so they're superior despite offering less TB. Unless you're a gamer constantly downloading new 50GB games, most people are fine with ~300GB of storage.

People want faster storage, as opposed to more storage.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by londons_explore on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:54PM (#17892715)
I want both.

I want 2TB of space and the speed of an SSD, and I don't want to pay much.

Hybrid hard drives seemed like the perfect solution (a few GB of flash, combined with a 2TB drive).

Sadly, nobody managed to get decent performance on hybrid drives. As far as I'm aware, none really had a good grasp of the filesystem, so none could make decisions like 'these small dll files will likley need low latency reads, stick them in the flash, while these massive mp4 files will probably be streamed, leave them on the hd'.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by Const-me on Saturday September 01, 2018 @04:18PM (#17893728)
Good hybrid drives are possible on higher levels of the stack, e.g. http://www.enmotus.com/fuzedrive
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by scarface74 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @05:57PM (#17894095)
Well. Apple will sell you a MacBook with 2TB SSD for $3700 or 4TB for $5700....
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by dawnerd on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:21PM (#17892530)
My surface go has been treating me pretty well despite it’s pretty paltry cpu. My iPad Pro has its place and I don’t really see the surface go as being a tablet replacement more of a supplemental computer for when you don’t want to carry a bigger laptop. Or in my case something to test Windows apps and websites on.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by tqkxzugoaupvwqr on Saturday September 01, 2018 @04:03PM (#17893662)
If one day your Surface Go decides to die, you can download Windows VMs[1] from Microsoft and run those on whatever device you use to develop websites and apps.

[1] https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/v...

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by dawnerd on Saturday September 01, 2018 @08:55PM (#17894800)
Yeah I've used those for a long while. They're just not the same as having a physical device, ya know?
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by tluyben2 on Sunday September 02, 2018 @04:20AM (#17896156)
We are saving so much on hosting since migrating from framework on Win to .NET Core on Linux and more so with 2.1. Performance and low latency on much lighter hardware; very well done.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by ericcholis on Saturday September 01, 2018 @11:57AM (#17892397)
I think this is entirely due to backwards compatibility.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by Arnt on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:04PM (#17892441)
Are you suggesting that Windows requires about 3700 additional MB of RAM to be backwards compatible with Windows versions that ran on devices with 32MB RAM?
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by reaperducer on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:13PM (#17892485)
I think this is entirely due to backwards compatibility.

That's the current conventional wisdom. But it's more like an excuse.

Windows got bloated because Microsoft relied(s) on cheap masses of mediocre programmers, backed by equally mediocre managers. A pattern that Windows application developers copied.

Yes, Microsoft has some really talented people. I knew a good number of them from the Bing and Xbox group when I lived in Bellevue. They would talk about amazing things. But then they would always follow those tales with internal Microsoft horror stories.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by supernovae on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:00PM (#17894114)
This isn't true at all. The ENTIRE industry had to re-invent itself MANY times - and MANY companies failed and have long since shutdown. Microsoft on the other hand has survived - and not only maintained backwards compatibility but embraced new technologies - and is doing so at a breakneck pace today.

Microsoft research is a top notch research company. Microsoft is also a large, if not the largest, contributor to Linux & Open source.

Horror stories aren't unique to Microsoft... The industry of the 80s/90s and early 2000s was something i'd never want to go back to - but its also something i suffered through and that suffering didn't matter what OS you ran. If you chose Irix it sucked paying 600 bucks for MEDIA to update your OS, if you ran HPUX it sucked having to buy a support contract to update your OS, if you ran Solaris, you were proud of solaris - but it wasn't until sun embraced open source that it really took off because we didn't have to buy a compiler that cost hundreds of dollars if not thousands to license.

Meanwhile, Windows has TurboC, TurboPascal and tons of stuff - and open source gnu started taking off and linux came around and the world started getting better for everyone- opportunity opened up - we crossed the chasim from 8 bit to 16 bit to 32 bit and 64bit and Windows has maintained a level of compatibility second to none to support all that legacy.

They're working hard to compete - Windows "S" mode is windows without the ability to stall win32 - its "Store mode" - it could go a LONG way into making it "suck less" from legacy cruft but by and large the market and developers are refusing to support it - which is odd considering they NEED to support the store model for official chromebooks, android apps or ios marketplaces.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by _emacsomancer_ on Saturday September 01, 2018 @07:09PM (#17894375)
> Microsoft is also a large, if not the largest, contributor to Linux & Open source.

I always hear things like this. What exactly are they contributing though?

> Windows has maintained a level of compatibility second to none to support all that legacy

As far as I can tell, if you want to run a legacy Windows app, you're more likely to be successful running it in Wine on Linux.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by supernovae on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @10:12AM (#17909160)
>I always hear things like this. What exactly are they contributing though?

Their employees contribute tons of code to the kernel and they're a premium partner in the Linux foundation paying Linus's salary. They contribute to the kernel, hadoop, mesos, k8s, they contribute to gcc, heck they let you run linux on windows now with Linux subsystem and have official partnerships with redhat, suse, ubuntu. They also open sourced C#, they contribute to jenkins, so much mroe.

>As far as I can tell, if you want to run a legacy Windows app, you're more likely to be successful running it in Wine on Linux.

no sane person would do that. Just run it in compatibility mode on Windows 10.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by _emacsomancer_ on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @11:27PM (#17914815)
> Their employees contribute tons of code to the kernel and they're a premium partner in the Linux foundation paying Linus's salary....

Linus wasn't starving before MS became a platinum member of the Linux Foundation.

> They contribute to the kernel, hadoop, mesos, k8s, they contribute to gcc, heck they let you run linux on windows now with Linux subsystem...

Right, so as far as I can tell most of their contribution are likely to be things to make their linux subsystem work better. Which has very little effect on me.

> >As far as I can tell, if you want to run a legacy Windows app, you're more likely to be successful running it in Wine on Linux.

> no sane person would do that. Just run it in compatibility mode on Windows 10.

Mentioning sanity and running Windows 10 in the same breath?

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by supernovae on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @11:32PM (#17975758)
Where do people like you come from? 20-year grudges, personal biases and so much hate/spite for something you know literally nothing about and would never use... Why?

Chromebooks are great. Windows 10 is great. My Macbook is great. We have TONS Of great computing devices and choices today. Use an iphone, use an android, use a stick phone, i don't give a crap.

What i do get appalled at is all this hate, misinformation and projection of personal biases and preference as "matter of fact".. its bull crap and ya know it.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by _emacsomancer_ on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:38AM (#17976522)
What do I literally know nothing about? I spent way too many years using Windows (not knowing any better), so I know more about it than I care to. I'm not sure how mentioning Wine's capabilities is hate in any case. But I'm happy to learn about whatever I may be mistaken about.

Edit: Ah, I realise what the 'hate' remark is about, my comment about Windows 10 and sanity. Here's my Windows 10 story - I was installing it on a 'game box' (since repurposed as a Linux workstation) off of a usb stick. In the middle of the installation, it complained about some sort of missing drivers (in a very opaque fashion). I wrote down the information and went off to the Internet for help, figuring, it's easy to help for Linux issues, so Windows issues like must be even easier, given its wide-use. But nothing I found made any difference. Until I came across a suggestion somewhere to unplug the usb at that point in time and plug it into another usb slot. I thought "that's silly and will never work". Of course, that was the solution. Note: it didn't matter which usb port it was plugged into initially, so it wasn't a 'usb3 drivers missing' issue or anything like that. For whatever reason, at that point in the installation, unplugging the usb and replugging it in made Windows 10 'see' the drivers. I spent way too many hours on such a silly (and still to me opaque) problem. Thus I don't really associate Windows 10 with sanity. (And I won't mention my experience with the official Microsoft Store and malware.)

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by reaperducer on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:14PM (#17894168)
Horror stories aren't unique to Microsoft

So because other companies also did sucky things, Microsoft’s sucky things don’t count.

Got it.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by supernovae on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:19PM (#17894194)
Never said that, it's just apparent you hold a grudge because of actions so long ago that even though they have changed, you won't.

You're ignoring a massive amount of history (and current actions) to keep your jaded worldview and that sucks.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by combatentropy on Saturday September 01, 2018 @01:26PM (#17892896)
Maintaining backwards compatibility makes improvement harder. But I lay the blame mainly at the feet of culture. It has been a company run by the sales department. Programmers are not in charge. Speed and stability come with leisurely refactoring, an activity impossible to explain to business and marketing majors.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by uygihvh on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:08PM (#17892462)
Except wine can now run more windows program then any version bof windows.

Wine better at windows than windows itself.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by pbhjpbhj on Saturday September 01, 2018 @01:53PM (#17893066)
Can WINE run on Windows eg via WSL?
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by fasafsaf3 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @03:31PM (#17893532)
Wine can probably run on Windows natively.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by fasafsaf3 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:26PM (#17892565)
Absolutely not. All the bloat 10 ships that makes it so slow is completely new. Compatibility has almost nothing to do with bloat.
Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by scarface74 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:30PM (#17892588)
How can compatibility not have to do with bloat? Entire subsystems in Windows are devoted to backwards compatibility. If you follow Raymond Chen’s blog on MSDN, he talks all of the time about all of the hacks in Windows to make it compatible with one specific program.

There is still a 32 bit version of Windows in 2018.

Re:$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft by fasafsaf3 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @12:37PM (#17892620)
There are a few hacks here and there that, I assume, introduce a bit of overhead, but the real problem with 10 is the absolute disregard the Windows team has for performance.

Windows 7 has the same level of compatilibity (or perhaps even more, as I'm sure more software is compatible with it) but it's much lighter.