News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by axod on Thursday May 01, 2008 @06:43AM (#178296)
This is just wrong and boring. For me, in a nutshell, Apple have extremely good taste. They make very well thought out products.

I first used an Apple 1 1/2 years ago. Before then I'd just assumed they were a load of hype.

Out of all the laptops I've had, (Toshiba, IBM, Sony, Dell, MacBook), the Macbook wins absolutely in terms of design, build quality, and functionality. The others aren't even close. It's a boolean for me... Macbook wins, all the others completely fail. Perhaps this is why you dismiss people like myself as fanboys. But there really is that much of a gap between apple and the rest.

MacBooks are just simple. Nicely designed functional objects. When you then look at a Dell or IBM etc, they are a mess. With grills here, extra buttons here, some ports on the front, some on the side, weird slopes here, it's like the design was an afterthought.

Just a shame I didn't try Apple sooner.

It's the same with the iPhone. Name one other phone that has a usable web browser, and brilliantly thought out keyboard.

It's not fanboyism, it's just common sense.

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by jrockway on Thursday May 01, 2008 @09:18AM (#178370)
They make very well thought out products.

With bugs. One thing Apple does consistently is release buggy Rev. A products. Every. Single. Time. It's almost like they try to do it.

Out of all the laptops I've had, (Toshiba, IBM, Sony, Dell, MacBook), the Macbook wins absolutely in terms of design, build quality, and functionality.

In terms of hardware, they're all the same designs from Intel. Apple uses prettier build materials (metal); but Thinkpads are a lot more solid. (Drainage holes under the keyboard, huge hinge connecting the screen to the base, easy to open up to add things, every screw has a part number for easy ordering, etc.)

In the end, I think people like Apple because Apple likes themselves so much. It's very easy to get excited about something when you see other people doing it. When Apple launches a product, it's a work of art. When Lenovo releases a new Thinkpad... it's really fucking boring. "Yay, it looks exactly like last year's model!" That doesn't mean it's not a good computer, though... it just means Apple markets to the ignorant better. There is quite a large market of people that don't know anything :)

Finally, yeah the iPhone and OS X are kind of nice. Unfortunately Apple likes to add cool features to their OS and then cripple them for The Media Companies; the same goes for the iPhone. When I buy something, I want it to work for me, not whoever is paying Apple this week.

So I use Linux on a Thinkpad, and think about what I do with my computer instead of what it looks like.

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by m0nty on Thursday May 01, 2008 @11:30AM (#178525)
"With bugs. One thing Apple does consistently is release buggy Rev. A products. Every. Single. Time. It's almost like they try to do it."

Yea, you could never accuse Microsoft and the PC vendors of sloppy work like that.

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by cstejerean on Thursday May 01, 2008 @11:50AM (#178547)
I actually like the fact that they release their products early. Since everyone knows initial releases can be buggy the bleeding edge early adopters can go ahead and buy it, while the more careful crowd can wait for the bugs found by the early adopters to be fixed in later releases.
Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by apotheon on Thursday May 01, 2008 @02:11PM (#178715)
Did you happen to notice that jrockway doesn't use MS Windows? Perhaps you should read the last line of jrockway's post before insinuating hypocrisy with a reference to Microsoft.
Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by m0nty on Thursday May 01, 2008 @03:27PM (#178827)
Please, get over yourself.
Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by apotheon on Thursday May 01, 2008 @03:31PM (#178829)
Myself . . . ? I'm not jrockway.
Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by m0nty on Thursday May 01, 2008 @04:43PM (#178911)
Just to spell it out a bit: to criticise Microsoft or PC vendors is hardly the same as criticising whoever jrockway is. It certainly doesn't imply he's a hypocrite, since I don't know him/her and cannot, therefore, comment on their morals or integrity. It was merely a flip comment pointing out that yes, Apple do indeed release imperfect products, but so do dozens of other companies and basically we see it as not such a big deal.

Even if I were criticising jrockway as a person, why on earth would you GAS? I'm sure he/she is quite capable of repudiating me him/herself if it were necessary. Fortunately, he/she probably has the good sense to see my offhand comment for what it was: just an offhand comment, not a personal criticism.

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by jrockway on Thursday May 01, 2008 @04:57PM (#178926)
Yea, you could never accuse Microsoft and the PC vendors of sloppy work like that.

Oh yeah, they are the collective kings of fucking things up miserably. But Apple has the image that everything they do is perfect; I'm just pointing out that they're not.

Going back to the original article, it appears Apple somehow has a fanbase that will ignore bugs just because they're Apple bugs. Isn't that interesting?

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by axod on Thursday May 01, 2008 @09:33AM (#178382)
"I think people like Apple because Apple likes themselves so much"

Stop telling me why I like my MacBook. I've told you why I like it. Please try and have some respect.

I ran Linux on a thinkpad for a couple of years. I'd spend a lot of time dealing with idiotic things like hardware issues, compatibility, linux updates etc etc. That's not a good use of my time. Since moving to a MacBook I haven't had any hardware issues, or had to spend ages maintaining the o/s. THAT is why people like Apple.

I don't know what you're talking about crippling for the media companies, obviously region coding is a complete pain in the neck, but I was pretty pleased when I hooked up my mac mini to the home network and could play all my backed up DVDs straight from frontrow without any extra hassles.

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by jrockway on Thursday May 01, 2008 @10:13AM (#178433)
As for the DRM things I'm talking about, google PT_DENY_ATTACH and the dtrace equivalent. Basically, if iTunes is running, you can't use dtrace. And the kernel prevents you from attaching debuggers to certain processes. Great.

Finally, using a Mac to play a DVD is incredibly annoying. If I use VLC, the video just starts playing. If I use Apple's program, I get "Prohibited" if I try to stop or skip at certain points. Prohibited!?? Fuck you, Apple. I make the rules on my computer, not you. (The annoying part is that this program auto-starts whenever I insert a DVD, and I can't quit because that's also "Prohibited". After that happened a few times, Apple's DVD player ended up in the trash can.)

I'd spend a lot of time dealing with idiotic things like hardware issues, compatibility, linux updates etc etc. That's not a good use of my time.

But OS X is just as bad. Every three days the machine wants to restart to install iTunes updates. And, there is no sane way to install UNIX-like software. Fink, macports, etc. are all junk compared to real Debian. The annoyances continue; emacs doesn't really work right, Apple breaks their Perl by applying non-approved patches, etc. Their window manager is utter junk. Not only do I have to manually arrange windows, I have to click to focus them, and "maximize" isn't an operation that exists. Arranging windows is a huge waste of time; the computer should do it for me. (So I use xmonad on Linux.) All in all, I really don't see how anyone can get any work done on a Mac. It's nice for Safari and VLC... but not for work.

Look, I don't care if you use Linux or not. But you should realize that OS X and Linux are both unproductive in their own unique ways. (Same for Windows.)

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by axod on Thursday May 01, 2008 @10:33AM (#178456)
Sure. I agree about idiotic DVD restrictions. Great that you can just install mplayer, vlc, mythtv or a hundred other solutions. I don't think windows media player is that much better to be honest.

As for iTunes, I've only ever used it to play music and rip CDs, and even then make sure it encodes as mp3s. Does sound like a pain if you have to use dtrace a lot.

Every 3 days to install iTunes updates???? That is just absolutely false. Don't make completely untrue statements like that, it doesn't help your argument. I have rebooted my macbook maybe 3 times this year so far, each time to install an update. Macports works ok, or just install from source.

I agree every O/S has its issues. For me personally, OS X is the most productive and least hassle. Please try to understand and respect that. Don't just dismiss it and assume that I must have an ulterior motive, or must have been brainwashed.

There are 2 things I do really hate about my MacBook:

1. The DVD drive is region coded, and has been region changed the max times, so I can only play half of my DVD collection in it. 2. I can't buy things from the iTunes US store unless I have a US credit card. Hello??? This is the internet!!!

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by jrockway on Thursday May 01, 2008 @10:53AM (#178487)
1. The DVD drive is region coded, and has been region changed the max times, so I can only play half of my DVD collection in it.

You should be able to play any DVD with VLC. The region-code is just a flag that Apple's software pays attention to. (Unless it's enforced by hardware now, which would be insane but not surprising.)

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by axod on Thursday May 01, 2008 @11:52AM (#178549)
It's hardware. The crappy Matsushita drive won't release any data unless the region code matches the code the drive has locked to. No firmware replacements either.

It's just so ironic that I can burn it to a new DVD as region free, and it'll play fine!

edit: someone downmodded me for stating fact ;) fun fun fun

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by mhb on Thursday May 01, 2008 @10:56AM (#178491)
Amusing Thinkpad X300 vs. Macbook Air ad video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-136851774381520099&...
Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by axod on Thursday May 01, 2008 @12:43PM (#178581)
heh that just fails though. I use the DVD drive in my macbook maybe once or twice a year. Same with the USB ports. Saving up for a MacBook air...
Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by apotheon on Thursday May 01, 2008 @03:03PM (#178790)
That certainly covers some of my issues with the Air.
Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by apotheon on Thursday May 01, 2008 @02:09PM (#178711)
Ironically, you go into great depth about actual quality versus fanboy-targeted marketing, making a very strong case -- then indicate that you use the "default" fanboy-targeted open source OS family (Linux). Okay, so it's not exactly the same, but I was thinking that your choices sound exactly like mine until you said "I use Linux on a Thinkpad."

Of course, that was me three years ago, so I don't have much room to mock anyone.

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by apotheon on Thursday May 01, 2008 @02:05PM (#178706)
Thinkpads are easily as good as Macbooks. In fact, for my purposes, they're better. I'd certainly agree that most Toshiba, Sony, and Dell laptops suck, though -- and that Mac laptops are pretty good, for people whose OS of choice is MacOS X anyway (since Mac laptops are not designed with other OSes in mind). I'm a little annoyed with the insistence on one-button mouse design, the lack of an alternative pointing device interface (I like the trackpoint on my Thinkpad), and the shallow keystroke on the keyboard, for Mac laptops -- but in general the hardware is much better than that of the average Vaio or Inspiron laptop.

The iPhone might rule the market in terms of good design for a "smartphone" (or maybe some lesser-known competitor has caught up or even surpassed it), but there aren't any smartphones that have solved the major usability design flaws that keep me from buying an iPhone. At best, the iPhone is the best of a bad bunch.

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by mattmaroon on Thursday May 01, 2008 @01:31PM (#178646)
iPhone's keyboard is terrible. I can name 100 phones with better keypads, because they have QWERTYs with tactile responses.

I too have decent experience with plenty of notebooks and find the MBP to be lacking in many areas. Maybe I'm stupid?

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by axod on Thursday May 01, 2008 @02:13PM (#178720)
The iPhone has a qwerty :/ I can type almost as fast as on my laptop using the iPhone...

I guess it's just a case of what you prefer.

Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by apotheon on Thursday May 01, 2008 @03:21PM (#178818)
I think you missed the "with tactile responses" part. Tactile feedback is very important to me when typing, because I type quickly, often without having to stare at the keyboard to aim my fingers.
Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by axod on Thursday May 01, 2008 @03:28PM (#178828)
it makes a clicking sound and zooms in on the key you press. I think that's pretty good. I find it a little harder to type on the iPhone when it's set to silent. I like to know when I've hit a key.
Re:How To Get Your Own Fanboys by apotheon on Thursday May 01, 2008 @03:31PM (#178831)
That still doesn't suit my need for tactile feedback (especially since it's not tactile -- it's audio).