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Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by rayiner on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @11:57PM (#17816172)
Marketing a 50 mbps plan as 200 kbps just because it cannot "handle 50 mbps all the time" does nothing useful except make pedantic power users happy. It's not actually useful to the consumer. From an engineering point of view, consumer workloads are almost always bursty, with a race to idle, so it makes sense to engineer systems to optimize for such workloads. And the most honest way to market them is by reference to typical behavior under typical workloads. For example, it's a lot more honest for Apple to sell me a Macbook Pro as having "up to 10 hours of battery life" and a "up to 3.5 GHz processor" than one that has 2 hours of battery life and has a 2 GHz processor (under sustained load). Indeed, doing it the way pedants want is actively misleading to consumers because it obscures what they can expect under typical usage. (In the case of laptops, it obscures the massive gains in typical battery life that have resulted from modern processors being much more efficient at idle, even if not so much at load.)

Likewise, if you can deliver 50 mbps most of the time for the workloads your users will typically see (sucking down a 5MB page then idling for 30-60 seconds), that's the most honest way to market it.

Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by alxlaz on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @05:47AM (#17817530)
> Marketing a 50 mbps plan as 200 kbps just because it cannot "handle 50 mbps all the time" does nothing useful

It's actually very useful in that it correctly tells you what speed you can expect.

If "50 Mbps" is the right way to describe a 200 kbps plan that can do 50 Mbps in bursts, what's the right name for a plan that can do 50 Mbps all the time? Really honest to god 50 Mbps?

Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by Spivak on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @09:25AM (#17818504)
"50Mbps dedicated" which just about any ISP will sell you if you're willing to pay business prices.
Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by wtallis on Thursday August 23, 2018 @12:37AM (#17824619)
That's a step further than necessary. What's needed is for 50Mbps to mean by default that it's a 50Mbps best-effort connection without any artificial throttling below 50Mbps. Congestion is unavoidable and even a "dedicated" line will at some point put your packets onto an oversubscribed link if it's a real Internet connection and not just a point-to-point link. But it's inexcusable to sell something as 50Mbps when it's really "50Mbps for part of the month, then you're screwed".
Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by alxlaz on Thursday August 23, 2018 @03:56AM (#17825405)
There's a world of difference between "speed will sometimes drop due to congestion" and "speed will definitely drop by throttling", and a dedicated line is way out of this spectrum :-).
Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by blub on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @01:34AM (#17816548)
No, how can you say that omitting information the "most honest" way to market it? The obvious honest way is to give several performance indicators for the different circumstances.

Apple does specify two clock speeds when configuring Macs for instance. Battery life is not a good example, since that's normal and expected to vary under load.

Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by rayiner on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @02:33AM (#17816787)
Who is talking about omitting information? The hypothetical here is whether you market something as a "50 mbps" service with the caveat that it's best-effort, or "as a 200kpbs plan with 50Mbps bursts." At the end of the day, you have to pick one metric as the headline and relegate the others to parentheticals, pop-ups, or the TOS.
Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by wtallis on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @04:36AM (#17817255)
> The hypothetical here is whether you market something as a "50 mbps" service with the caveat that it's best-effort

It's already been explained to you that the "unlimited" plan at issue was clearly not best-effort after the limit was reached. The throttling that Verizon applied was around-the-clock and resulted in the fire department's device getting a tiny fraction of the speed that personal devices at the same location were getting. The throttling was not happening as a result of congestion, it was an artificial limit on a plan advertised as "unlimited". All theses arguments you're making about best-effort service are irrelevant distractions. A plan that stops being best-effort part way through the billing period cannot be honestly sold as "best-effort" any more than it can be honestly sold as "unlimited".

Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by TheCoelacanth on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @09:32AM (#17818537)
I'm fine with selling a 50mbps best-effort plan as "50mbps". A "200kpbs plan with 50Mbps bursts" is not that. If you are throttling people to 200kbps after a short burst, that is not best effort. A best effort plan would vary with the overall congestion, it would not drop off specifically based on your personal use of the connection.
Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by TheCoelacanth on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @09:14AM (#17818433)
I'm not expecting 50mbps literally 100% of the time. I am expecting them to make a good faith to deliver 50mbps at all times. If they actively apply throttling after a certain amount of data, that is not making a good faith effort to deliver what you promised me.

Short bursts are no longer the normal way for consumers to use bandwidth. Most bandwidth is now used for streaming media. In 2015, it was 70% of American bandwidth at peak hours[1]. It has probably only gone up since then.

[1] https://venturebeat.com/2015/12/07/streaming-services-now-ac...

Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by rayiner on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @09:54AM (#17818669)
But that's literally what you said: "it should be able to handle 50Mbps all the time."

> If they actively apply throttling after a certain amount of data, that is not making a good faith effort to deliver what you promised me

I agree that would be misleading, but who does that? I've never seen a plan that's advertised as e.g. 50 mbps unlimited data that throttles after a certain usage.

> Short bursts are no longer the normal way for consumers to use bandwidth. Most bandwidth is now used for streaming media. In 2015, it was 70% of American bandwidth at peak hours[1]

Measuring it by a proportion of total bandwidth is misleading,[1] because sustained loads will obviously use more bandwidth in the aggregate than bursty loads. But users likely still spend much more wall-clock time doing bursty activities (web browsing, refreshing facebook, twitter, downloading apps tore apps) than streaming. Given that a web page these days is in the 5MB+ range, it still makes sense to optimize networks primarily for bursts.

[1] It's like if you analyzed laptop battery life by looking at the total kilowatt hours used by different tasks. That would overstate the importance of things like gaming, which use more battery life in the aggregate but which users spend less wall-clock time doing than word processing or web browsing.

Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by TheCoelacanth on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @11:36AM (#17819431)
> But that's literally what you said: "it should be able to handle 50Mbps all the time."

Please be reasonable and apply some common sense. Colloquial statements are usually not intended to be taken to the most extreme level of literalness possible. It is commonly understood that any form of internet service may occasionally experience brief outages or degradation in service because of circumstances outside of the provider's control. It is not commonly understood that any form of internet service will necessarily involve the provider voluntarily causing that degradation in service.

> I agree that would be misleading, but who does that? I've never seen a plan that's advertised as e.g. 50 mbps unlimited data that throttles after a certain usage.

Verizon has multiple plans with "Unlimited" (some of them with the ridiculous names of "Above Unlimited" and "Beyond Unlimited") in the name that actually have limits once you look at the details. I'm not saying that type of plan is wrong to have, just don't name it something that is a bald-faced lie.

Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by rayiner on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @01:33PM (#17820342)
> Please be reasonable and apply some common sense. Colloquial statements are usually not intended to be taken to the most extreme level of literalness possible.

The problem is that there is a well-established distinction between a dedicated circuit, which offers a certain speed "all the time," and best-effort service, which offers "up to 50 mbps" subject to network congestion. To anyone familiar with telecom, it sounded like you were saying that only e.g. 50-mbps dedicated circuits should be advertised as "50 mbps."

I agree with you that if you advertise a 50 mbps best effort service, and also guarantee unlimited data usage, it would be wrong to throttle it after a certain amount of data usage. But to my knowledge, nobody does the combination of both.

> Verizon has multiple plans with "Unlimited" (some of them with the ridiculous names of "Above Unlimited" and "Beyond Unlimited")

Verizon doesn't have any consumer plans that guarantee both an amount of data usage and a specific speed. The plans that specify a certain speed (e.g. FiOS) do not throttle after any amount of data usage. The plans that specify unlimited data usage with throttling after a certain point do not guarantee any particular level of speed. You're taking "unlimited" to mean "without limits in both data rate and data usage," which is one possible, but not the only possible interpretation of the phrase.

Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by TheCoelacanth on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @02:40PM (#17820883)
> a dedicated circuit, which offers a certain speed "all the time," and best-effort service

Even dedicated circuits do not guarantee a certain speed 100% of the time. They guarantee a certain speed 99.x% of the time specified by an SLA.

> Verizon doesn't have any consumer plans that guarantee both an amount of data usage and a specific speed.

They do. They have multiple plans that specifically say "Unlimited 4G LTE Data"[1]. You might argue that 4G LTE is not technically a measure of speed, but it is certainly understood that way by consumers, so it should not be used in marketing if it is not intended as a measure of speed.

[1] https://www.verizonwireless.com/plans/unlimited/

Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by wtallis on Thursday August 23, 2018 @12:43AM (#17824643)
> You might argue that 4G LTE is not technically a measure of speed, but it is certainly understood that way by consumers, so it should not be used in marketing if it is not intended as a measure of speed.

Even if it's hard to exactly quantify a priori what "4G LTE" speed is given that it varies with circumstances, it's pretty easy to show when Verizon isn't trying to deliver as much data as they have capacity for. The fire department did that, by comparing speed on their throttled device side by side with a personal device on the same network.

Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by bkor on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @03:52AM (#17817091)
> It's not actually useful to the consumer.

It is useful to the consumer. It's not useful if you want to sell it.

Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by therein on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @12:16AM (#17816253)
I honestly could see both arguments being justified to a certain extent. And that's probably why nobody is too eager to try to regulate it, or a convenient excuse to not regulate.
Re:Verizon throttled fire department’s “unlimited” data duri... by rmc on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @02:32AM (#17816780)
One advantage of selling "200kps burst to 50Mbps": When tender for software that's the spec you give. "Your software must work in these cases". Otherwise software will be tuned to what you say you had ("50Mbps")