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Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by jrockway on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:10PM (#17801712)
I feel like this is nothing new. Every few years, some major sportsball team threatens to leave their city unless the taxpayers fork over mega-billions for a new stadium. Despite any measurable economic benefits to having a stadium, the cities fall for it every time. It's the same thing, right? Amazon says "give us free electricity and we'll make jobs", and the politicians buy it even though it's very unlikely to be true.

Maybe someday we'll get an itemized tax bill, so you can see that you paid $4.12 for Amazon's electricity and $1.23 for a new sports arena, and can vote for someone else if that upsets you. Now that I think about it, that will never happen. And so, the cycle continues.

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by siruncledrew on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:38PM (#17801975)
It's pretty easy to pull off.

Step 1: Make a threat about jobs/money to get lawmakers to pay attention.

Step 2: Get favorable legislation passed. Hold hands with lawmakers in photo-op for the papers.

Step 3: Stall on delivering on promises until lawmakers leave office or come up with excuses.

Step 4: Profit.

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by ErikVandeWater on Monday August 20, 2018 @02:54PM (#17802748)
Step 0: Donate to both parties to gain favor with the implicit threat it will be removed if favorable legislation is not passed.
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by EvilEndures on Monday August 20, 2018 @03:16PM (#17802956)
They don't do that usually. They just donate to incumbents.
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by bcohen5055 on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:14PM (#17801744)
To be fair they don't pay for it every time... The chargers are now in LA, not SD
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by dev_dull on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:32PM (#17801919)
Sonics now in Oklahoma.
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by brandonmenc on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:31PM (#17801904)
tbf, anyone saying "sportsball" isn't even going to know who the chargers are
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by amerkhalid on Monday August 20, 2018 @04:00PM (#17803381)
I have heard term "sportsball" before. It seems that it is used mostly in context of making fun of people's addiction to their favorite teams.
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by Dylan16807 on Monday August 20, 2018 @03:51PM (#17803292)
Bah. They're not even using the term to display any lack of knowledge, because there are multiple sports involved.
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by s73v3r_ on Monday August 20, 2018 @02:34PM (#17802543)
Right, but then that just makes their argument that much weaker.
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by kartan on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:52PM (#17802114)
> and the politicians buy it even though it's very unlikely to be true.

For who are this measures passed? Interesting explanation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by gamblor956 on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:31PM (#17801903)
LA is not providing any money for the Rams/Chargers stadium, nor did it pay for any part of the LA Football stadium. We told the teams they could build a stadium if they wanted the second-largest media market in the US to call home, or they could shove it. They did the math and now LA has 2 football teams and 2 futbol teams.
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by opo on Monday August 20, 2018 @02:06PM (#17802277)
While their is less public subsidy for the Rams/Chargers stadium than many other stadiums, it doesn’t look like it is zero:

>..."There will be no public dollars, no taxpayer dollars used for this project," he said. "The entire project has been privately capitalized and is being privately funded." The nuance between that statement — similar claims were made by Inglewood Mayor James Butts — and tax breaks that could reach $100 million lies in the fine print of a 185-page initiative plan filed by the developers earlier this month. It includes two paragraphs of how Inglewood would eventually reimburse the project for the costs of roadwork, utility work and public parks on the nearly 300-acre site. Meany estimated those costs at $60 million. The city would also reimburse costs of security, medical services and shuttles to off-site parking during stadium events, which Butts estimated at about $8 million a year.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-stadium-tax-break-201501...

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by gamblor956 on Monday August 20, 2018 @03:59PM (#17803370)
Around the stadium is a large mixed-use development (housing, restaurants, offices, hotel, etc.). When talking about the project, the larger development is often conflated with the stadium for ease-of-reference but the two are very separate projects. The mixed-use development has received significant tax breaks, and associated projects (such as rebuilding parks, etc.) are being paid for by the developers. Those costs would be reimbursed by Inglewood over time in the form of tax breaks, if tax revenues actually exceed a specified threshold each year...so potentially not at all.

Also, being pedantic, Inglewood is its own city.

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by wgerard on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:57PM (#17802164)
LA (along with NY and maybe Chicago) is the exception that proves the rule.

Most cities that tell teams to shove it just end up losing their teams to other markets: In this case, San Diego and St. Louis.

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by CodeCube on Monday August 20, 2018 @02:01PM (#17802216)
But are they worse off for "losing" those teams?
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by wgerard on Monday August 20, 2018 @03:38PM (#17803166)
Definitely a valid question! I think it's hard to define what "worse off" means here, mostly because it's hard to put a number on the value of entertainment to people (other than the obvious ones: ticket prices, etc.).

I get what you're saying, though - cities often give up a lot (and probably too much) to keep franchises happy.

I'm mostly just pointing out the major power disparity between LA and other cities: Major sports teams want to be in LA far more than LA wants a major sports team. That's not true of, say, Seattle or St. Louis or San Diego.

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by cimmanom on Monday August 20, 2018 @03:04PM (#17802850)
NY already did the losing their teams to other markets thing, they just did it 60 years ago.
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by dionidium on Monday August 20, 2018 @03:03PM (#17802843)
> Despite any measurable economic benefits to having a stadium, the cities fall for it every time

Yes, just like they "fall for" municipal operas, art museums, Shakespeare in the Park, and any number of other cultural amenities that don't have obvious and immediate economic impact.

Perhaps your complaint is less about public investment in cultural benefits than it is an issue with one particular kind of culture?

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by s73v3r_ on Monday August 20, 2018 @04:08PM (#17803461)
Those things don't receive anywhere near the amount of funding that stadiums and arenas do.
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by dionidium on Monday August 20, 2018 @04:22PM (#17803586)
Based on what? Just grabbing the numbers for one institution I happen to be familiar with, the St. Louis Metropolitan Zoological Park and Museum District:

> During its history, the zoo-museum district - officially known as the Metropolitan Zoological Park and Museum District - has raised about $1.3 billion, stabilized five once-struggling institutions and helped some of them develop international reputations.

Source: https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/zoo-museum-tax-dis...

So that's $1.3. billion in tax dollars raised specifically to fund the museums and zoo in the largest park of one mid-sized U.S. city.

That tax raises 35 times the $5 million per year the city pays on the bond for the old Rams stadium, which generates a lot of articles like this one:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rams-los-angeles-st-lou...

Of course, HuffPo doesn't write any articles about the zoo tax, because literal rams in cages is a more noble use of money than figurative Rams throwing a football, one presumes.

The number here also dwarfs the direct public subsidy for Busch Stadium, also in St. Louis, which also got a ton of ink and public scrutiny.

More info on that subsidy here:

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/What+the+public+paid+for+the+...

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by s73v3r_ on Monday August 20, 2018 @04:46PM (#17803796)
"So that's $1.3. billion in tax dollars raised specifically to fund the museums and zoo in the largest park of one mid-sized U.S. city."

That's divided amongst 5 public organizations. Not all going to one billionaire.

"That tax raises 35 times the $5 million per year the city pays on the bond for the old Rams stadium"

Stadium for one purpose, for a team owned by a billionaire, who also left town.

The cost to the city was also far more than just $5 million a year; the total amount the city put behind the stadium was $280 million.

"Of course, HuffPo doesn't write any articles about the zoo tax, because literal rams in cages is a more noble use of money than figurative Rams throwing a football, one presumes."

Or maybe it's because NFL teams, with the exception of the Green Bay Packers, are owned by billionaires who could easily afford to build their own stadium.

And I've never seen a zoo threaten to leave town unless the city agreed to pay for a new elephant habitat.

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by jrnichols on Monday August 20, 2018 @11:11PM (#17806614)
> Stadium for one purpose

how many of them now are actually one purpose? Local example is AT&T Stadium (also known as "Jerry World") which in addition to the occasional Dallas Cowboys win also hosts a lot of UIL sporting events, high school football playoffs, motocross, monster trucks, rodeo events, and a bunch of concerts.

Nearby Globe Life ballpark has... well, baseball.

> And I've never seen a zoo threaten to leave town unless the city agreed to pay for a new elephant habitat.

Never seen one threaten to leave, but I've seen them threaten to close down exhibits.

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by dionidium on Monday August 20, 2018 @05:38PM (#17804235)
This is moving the goalposts, to choose an apt metaphor. The point is twofold:

1) We spend money on other types of cultural amenities all the time and nobody cares; and...

2) That spending is of an amount that lodges it appropriately within this conversation.

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by leereeves on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:08PM (#17804456)
Paying taxes to sponsor nonprofits that don't charge for admission is a bit different from paying taxes to sponsor private enterprises that charge hundreds of dollars for tickets and pay multi-million dollar salaries.
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by dionidium on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @11:27AM (#17810432)
Yes, there are differences. For example, another difference is that the people in museums don't wear jerseys, but athletes do. The question isn't whether there are differences; it's whether those differences matter. I don't think they matter. More specifically, I don't think they're relevant to the objections here, which are largely cultural in nature.

In fact, what the high salaries in sports reveal to me is that the public wants sports a lot more than they want museums.

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by s73v3r_ on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:43PM (#17805224)
No, I don't believe it's moving any goalposts. The fact of the matter is, the stadiums are for teams owned by billionaires who could easily build their own stadium, and they get far more in subsidies than the other things you mentioned. $1.3 billion was raised in your article, but it was split between several different things.
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by dionidium on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:49PM (#17805288)
I think the numbers I posted speak for themselves. You looked at the same numbers and drew a wildly different conclusion (for reasons I think I know).

So I guess that means we're at an impasse.

Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by s73v3r_ on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:31PM (#17811071)
They did. But you ignored the fact that your original number was the amount raised for several different organizations over a longer period of time. You chose not to mention that, for reasons I think I know.
Re:Amazon's electricity rate discounts have pushed up utilit... by dionidium on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @04:20PM (#17813394)
You're inordinately focused on the fact that the zoo-museum district includes "several different organizations." You seem to think this is a crucially-important fact, one I'm trying to conceal, for some reason, but neither of those beliefs are true.

> You chose not to mention that, for reasons I think I know.

You should re-read my original comment, the one that started this truly silly subthread, which twice reveals that there are multiple organizations included in the district.