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Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by TulliusCicero on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:17AM (#17774332)
The senate's structure made sense at the time of the country's founding, when people thought of themselves as citizens of their state first, and citizens of their (very recent) country second. But that hasn't been true for at least decades now, and thus the Senate is rather anti-democratic. People shouldn't have more or less voting power just because of where they live in the US.
Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by mikeash on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:18PM (#17775956)
It’s also worth remembering that the people who designed the Constitution had to actually convince the various states to join in and accept the end result. There may have been a better way to structure the resulting nation, but if too many states didn’t like it then you wouldn’t have a nation in the first place.
Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by sp332 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:43AM (#17775013)
And it's been getting worse as the population concentrates into fewer states, giving those people relatively less and less representation in the Senate.
Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by mrguyorama on Friday August 17, 2018 @04:29PM (#17785424)
That's a feature by some people's opinion
Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by emodendroket on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:50AM (#17774562)
The Senate exists largely because smaller states' representatives at the Constitutional Convention wanted it to and because the US government was essentially a copy-and-paste job of the British one with an elected president in place of the king. I think it would be a mistake to attribute that much unique suitability, even in an 18th-Century context, to it.
Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by dragonwriter on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:23AM (#17774367)
> The senate's structure made sense at the time of the country's founding,

Sure, when the question of “how do we make sure the slave states, who have smaller population and even smaller yet free, voting populations than the free states, are able to protect the institution of slavery” was current, all of the structure of the Senate, it's mirror in the electoral college, and the 3/5 compromise for the House made sense.

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by aaron-lebo on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:49AM (#17774557)
The Virginia Plan (also known as the Randolph Plan, after its sponsor, or the Large-State Plan) was a proposal by Virginia delegates for a bicameral legislative branch.[1] The plan was drafted by James Madison while he waited for a quorum to assemble at the Constitutional Convention of 1787.[2][3] The Virginia Plan was notable for its role in setting the overall agenda for debate in the convention and, in particular, for setting forth the idea of population-weighted representation in the proposed national legislature.

Quoting this because it's important to note it's not nearly as simple as that. Virginia was the largest state (and largest slaveholding state).

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by emodendroket on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:52AM (#17774585)
Yes, but looking at the larger picture, the tidewater aristocracy's interests were protected by the disproportionate power given to the South up till the Civil War, so I think the claim you're responding to is compelling.
Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by aaron-lebo on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:57AM (#17774618)
Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia voted for the Virginia Plan, while New York, New Jersey, and Delaware voted for the New Jersey Plan, an alternate that was also on the table. The delegates from Maryland were split, so the state's vote was null.

It's pretty evenly split. It's difficult to suggest it's all or mostly about slavery.

It may be compelling but claims like that need evidence, and when you pull in the evidence it's not so convincing.

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by emodendroket on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:01AM (#17774643)
Certainly for a state like Connecticut it was more about preserving the influence of a smaller state, but why would Virginia throw its support behind a plan that would seem to weaken its own influence? That's a question worth asking (and honestly I don't know enough about the views of all the individual delegates to answer it). And in reality the plan did benefit slaveholder interests -- certainly by the time Southerners were trying to conquer every piece of Latin American territory they could get their hands on to increase the slave vote they were conscious of these dynamics.
Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by ameister14 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @11:36AM (#17775574)
Virginia threw its support behind this plan because it was the best possible constitutional plan available. Madison was pushing for a stronger National government at the time but being blocked, and as a part of that national government, he was advocating the Senate have the ability to essentially veto state laws - remember that there was no Judicial Review in the system at the time.

So for the Senate to have that power, they needed to have equal representation from each state otherwise populous states would have too much influence on the internal government of other states.

That's part of it, anyway. It's more complicated and I'd recommend you read Madison's notes on the Constitutional Convention if you're really curious.

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by aaron-lebo on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:05AM (#17774668)
Certainly for a state like Connecticut it was more about preserving the influence of a smaller state, but why would Virginia throw its support behind a plan that would seem to weaken its own influence?

Because while they were aware of that, there was more at play than racism and slavery, as Virginia voting against its interests suggests.

Slightly pedantic, I could be wrong, but no serious attempts were ever made to conquer south; less than the attempts to conquer Canada, anyway. History is complex!

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by emodendroket on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:11AM (#17774714)
Such as? What I am suggesting is that when we take slavery into account Virginia was not actually voting against its interests, despite surface appearances.
Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by aaron-lebo on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:22AM (#17774799)
You said it yourself in another post: they were just copying the British.

The Virginians, that aristocratic lot, would have and did prefer features like the Senate, which would have provided a counterweight to the more radical House. It's that way even today.

I can't speak further to the historical context, but everything I've read about federation/modern/consensus democracies suggest that bicameralism is a benefit (ex http://wikisum.com/w/Lijphart:_Patterns_of_democracy).

Again, that's not saying that's what they were considering then, but also read some of the Federalist Papers (Madison in particular) and how much they were weighing factions/balance of power into some of these solutions.

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by emodendroket on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:38AM (#17774962)
> Consensus democracies also have "kinder, gentler" traits: lower incarceration rates, less use of the death penalty, better care for the environment, more foreign aid work, and more welfare spending.

Uh, I'm not convinced it's working here, chief.

On the Convention count, as you can see, I find some logic in both explanations.

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by dragonwriter on Thursday August 16, 2018 @01:19PM (#17776625)
> Slightly pedantic, I could be wrong, but no serious attempts were ever made to conquer south

Florida and Texas?

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by emodendroket on Thursday August 16, 2018 @03:31PM (#17777792)
Privateers were constantly trying in places like Cuba and Nicaragua too (this practice is the origin of the term "filibustering;" look up William Walker if you're interested) but yeah the Mexican-American War is the obvious answer. Somehow I missed that paragraph when I replied earlier.