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Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by emodendroket on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:52AM (#17774585)
Yes, but looking at the larger picture, the tidewater aristocracy's interests were protected by the disproportionate power given to the South up till the Civil War, so I think the claim you're responding to is compelling.
Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by aaron-lebo on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:57AM (#17774618)
Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia voted for the Virginia Plan, while New York, New Jersey, and Delaware voted for the New Jersey Plan, an alternate that was also on the table. The delegates from Maryland were split, so the state's vote was null.

It's pretty evenly split. It's difficult to suggest it's all or mostly about slavery.

It may be compelling but claims like that need evidence, and when you pull in the evidence it's not so convincing.

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by emodendroket on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:01AM (#17774643)
Certainly for a state like Connecticut it was more about preserving the influence of a smaller state, but why would Virginia throw its support behind a plan that would seem to weaken its own influence? That's a question worth asking (and honestly I don't know enough about the views of all the individual delegates to answer it). And in reality the plan did benefit slaveholder interests -- certainly by the time Southerners were trying to conquer every piece of Latin American territory they could get their hands on to increase the slave vote they were conscious of these dynamics.
Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by ameister14 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @11:36AM (#17775574)
Virginia threw its support behind this plan because it was the best possible constitutional plan available. Madison was pushing for a stronger National government at the time but being blocked, and as a part of that national government, he was advocating the Senate have the ability to essentially veto state laws - remember that there was no Judicial Review in the system at the time.

So for the Senate to have that power, they needed to have equal representation from each state otherwise populous states would have too much influence on the internal government of other states.

That's part of it, anyway. It's more complicated and I'd recommend you read Madison's notes on the Constitutional Convention if you're really curious.

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by aaron-lebo on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:05AM (#17774668)
Certainly for a state like Connecticut it was more about preserving the influence of a smaller state, but why would Virginia throw its support behind a plan that would seem to weaken its own influence?

Because while they were aware of that, there was more at play than racism and slavery, as Virginia voting against its interests suggests.

Slightly pedantic, I could be wrong, but no serious attempts were ever made to conquer south; less than the attempts to conquer Canada, anyway. History is complex!

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by emodendroket on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:11AM (#17774714)
Such as? What I am suggesting is that when we take slavery into account Virginia was not actually voting against its interests, despite surface appearances.
Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by aaron-lebo on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:22AM (#17774799)
You said it yourself in another post: they were just copying the British.

The Virginians, that aristocratic lot, would have and did prefer features like the Senate, which would have provided a counterweight to the more radical House. It's that way even today.

I can't speak further to the historical context, but everything I've read about federation/modern/consensus democracies suggest that bicameralism is a benefit (ex http://wikisum.com/w/Lijphart:_Patterns_of_democracy).

Again, that's not saying that's what they were considering then, but also read some of the Federalist Papers (Madison in particular) and how much they were weighing factions/balance of power into some of these solutions.

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by emodendroket on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:38AM (#17774962)
> Consensus democracies also have "kinder, gentler" traits: lower incarceration rates, less use of the death penalty, better care for the environment, more foreign aid work, and more welfare spending.

Uh, I'm not convinced it's working here, chief.

On the Convention count, as you can see, I find some logic in both explanations.

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by dragonwriter on Thursday August 16, 2018 @01:19PM (#17776625)
> Slightly pedantic, I could be wrong, but no serious attempts were ever made to conquer south

Florida and Texas?

Re:The Revolution Against the Revolution: Looking Back on Sh... by emodendroket on Thursday August 16, 2018 @03:31PM (#17777792)
Privateers were constantly trying in places like Cuba and Nicaragua too (this practice is the origin of the term "filibustering;" look up William Walker if you're interested) but yeah the Mexican-American War is the obvious answer. Somehow I missed that paragraph when I replied earlier.