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Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by gfodor on Friday October 08, 2010 @11:25PM (#1774250)
I found this article pretty hilarious in that it goes on and on about how the movie fails to provide any clear examples of what makes a good teacher and then fails to provide any clear examples of what makes a good teacher. It's like the author not only assumed that we knew what he was talking about, but that we already agreed with him and hence didn't need to be persuaded by examples. This wasn't really an argument so much as a long-winded expression of a single persons opinion.

Also, the last time I checked, you can't just "memorize" your way into passing standardized tests outside of perhaps spelling and vocabulary tests.

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by 1337p337 on Saturday October 09, 2010 @05:01AM (#1774721)
And a pretty biased opinion at that: "At the end of the day, we have an economy that works for the rich by cheating the poor and unequal schools are the result of that, not the cause."

Having come from a poor family, my single mother the child of a dirt-poor, subsistence-farming family, and having done fairly well for myself all things considered, I am almost always skeptical of anyone that says the poor don't have a chance. Not that public schooling was much help, but when people spout this garbage, I want to ask them where the hell I came from if the US doesn't give you a fair shake. I've not seen failure from anyone that was truly determined, but I have seen a pampered, upper-middle class tell me I couldn't make it, over and over again. Hell, I've seen my own family tell me I couldn't make it. I could imagine beliving them if I were anywhere else on earth.

The most inspiring thing I've ever seen is Baxter Humby, right after defending his title as super-middleweight Muay Thai champion (with only one arm and at the age of 34, no less) grab the microphone like a giddy schoolboy and tell the stunned audience after his mostly one-sided fight (I have never seen a one-armed man dominate the ring like that) that the only limits we have are those we place on ourselves. I'm thoroughly sick of dour people like the author of this article help people limit themselves.

Humby aside, it's true: you don't need to listen to anyone tell you that you are oppressed here. Prove it to yourself: make enough money to travel abroad, and see if those people are oppressed, to give yourself a point of reference. You'll learn a few things on the way up.

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by OpieCunningham on Sunday October 10, 2010 @12:42PM (#1777349)
Statistically, someone raised poor is far less likely to become more successful financially vs. someone raised wealthy. You may be an exception, but why is that so hard to comprehend? Personal drive is but one portion of following a path to success. Of course, personal drive comes from somewhere - were you born with it or did it grow in you from your various interpersonal relationships with family, friends, peers and mentors? What about those poor people who did not have the same personal drive growth from their family, friends, peers and mentors? Another aspect in the path to success, at least as valuable as personal growth, is luck. Luck to be born in a wealthy family. Luck to be born in an environment where experiences with family/friends/peers/mentors instills a strong sense of personal growth. Luck to meet someone who opens a door.
Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by 1337p337 on Sunday October 10, 2010 @03:09PM (#1777702)
I never said a lack of money was not a disadvantage. I pointed out Humby as an example of someone with what might be considered a totally insumountable disadvantage (one friggin' arm, the guy's a hero).

Lots of poor people stay poor and are likely to continue; my point is that, of all places on earth, the poor have a pretty good shot here, and that the attitude that we're somehow unfair to them in this country is totally unfounded and, in fact, damaging to people who don't need the added disadvantage of being discouraged.

Life's playing field has never been level, but it doesn't do anyone any good to make these assertions that one disadvantage or another is too much.

As far as your question about personal drive, it came from an intense desire to not eat another bowl of instant ramen, ever.

And on the topic of luck, it's a common saying that the harder you work, the luckier you get.

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by klbarry on Saturday October 09, 2010 @07:28AM (#1774849)
Everyone has opportunity in America - some people are weighed down by past experiences, family and personal. I believe that's the biggest preventer of social mobility.
Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by milkshakes on Saturday October 09, 2010 @01:01AM (#1774376)
Also, the last time I checked, you can't just "memorize" your way into passing standardized tests outside of perhaps spelling and vocabulary tests.

Have you taken a standardized test lately? I'm 23, and I've taken at least a dozen of them. Every single one I have taken has tested my ability to learn the test at least as much (if not more, cough SATs cough).

Color me cynical, but i believe it's a scam, perpetuated by the powers entrusted with administering these tests, who in turn are influenced by lobbies for the 'test prep' industry.

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by tokenadult on Saturday October 09, 2010 @01:48AM (#1774457)
Have you obtained perfect scores on all those tests? Perfect scores on the SAT

http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/sat-perce...

are still rather rare.

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by milkshakes on Saturday October 09, 2010 @03:09AM (#1774562)
Since you asked, I do tend to do very well on standardized tests. I actually did get a perfect score on that particular test. SAT scores are an excellent example to examine. The SATs are notoriously coachable, and there's an entire ecosystem around gaming the test. Last year alone, the industry took in over 4 billion dollars. I didn't get a perfect score my first try, but it wasn't a question of my understanding of the material. The questions I got wrong were "trick" questions, and all I did to get a perfect score the next time was buy the giant book of practice tests and do them every weekend, one by one, which helped me recognize the trick questions.
Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by yummyfajitas on Saturday October 09, 2010 @08:51AM (#1774934)
According to at least one independent study (i.e., not funded by Kaplan), test prep doesn't help you as much as you think.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124278685697537839.html

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by Locke1689 on Saturday October 09, 2010 @02:34AM (#1774525)
I agree that the SAT doesn't really test intelligence or knowledge, per se, but a specialized skill set that you do receive from studying for the test. For whatever it's worth, I received a 2350 on my SAT, which is in the same margin as a 2400 (I actually only answered one question incorrectly in the entire test).
Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by aik on Saturday October 09, 2010 @08:06AM (#1774875)
No one said memorization of pointless random stuff is easy.
Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by astine on Saturday October 09, 2010 @12:28AM (#1774340)
"fails to provide any clear examples of what makes a good teacher"

I can provide what I believe the be an example of a good teaacher: When I was in highschool I had a number of teachers but the one who stuck out the most a man who taught us religious education (I went to Catholic school.) On the first day of class, this man, to show just how important he thought that this one point was, dropped to his knees and shouted. His enthusiasm grabbed my attention and made the lecture much more interesting.

This man tought us more classes and each one he tought with a sense of dynamism and enthusiasm which was infectious. He knew his subject matter, was passionate about it, was intellectually curious, wanted us to be so as well. Not only did he hold himself to high standards, he held the class to high standards as well, and all of his together made us, particularly me, want to learn.

I once had the privilaege to sit in on the disertation of a man who was discussion what he believed the best approach to education was. His conclusion was that a teacher's role was was to act as a sort of guide to the student. To inspire the student and motivate him to learn. His belief was that teaching was first and formost, a relationship between the student and the teacher.

I agree. Growing up I loved school, but I went to a very small school with a very strong sense of community. I knew all the teachers and they all knew me and it helped to make learning a very rewarding experience. I think the crux of it is this: most of my immediate role models growing up loved to learn and loved their subjects and I learned from them to learn and an appreciation of the same subjects.

In today's public schools, there is a certain lack of interpersonalization eityher due to management style, regulations, or budget issues, which makes it harder for the teachers to connect with the students and teach. I don't know what the root cause of this is, but I think it is a major factor in the ineffectiveness of the system.

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by WalterBright on Saturday October 09, 2010 @01:09AM (#1774388)
An objective standard for what is a good teacher or not can never work. It will be immediately gamed. It's like art, movies, music, etc. You and I immediately know if something is good or not, but we cannot write a set of rules defining good.
Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by scott_s on Friday October 08, 2010 @11:44PM (#1774291)
A good start. Building a Better Teacher: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/magazine/07Teachers-t.html
Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by mattmcknight on Saturday October 09, 2010 @12:00AM (#1774315)
Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by jyu on Saturday October 09, 2010 @12:13AM (#1774325)
For those that don't want to login: http://www.bugmenot.com/view/nytimes.com
Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by gfodor on Saturday October 09, 2010 @10:04AM (#1775027)
Great article, thanks.
Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by TGJ on Friday October 08, 2010 @11:47PM (#1774299)
I read your argument, and then thought about what you wrote while reading your comment again. Then I realized that your argument is an argument against your argument.

Good teachers engage their students and make them think about problems around them and how to solve them. They present history as then ask if it's happening again around them. They teach English and then explain why learning the proper way to talk and write helps make their own expressions more poignant and well received.

In today's school system's the teachers are judged solely on the test scores of students and it's unheard of that a student might simply be a 'c' student instead of being the teachers fault. Teachers have to teach the tests and no longer have the proper time to teach theory and critical thinking. School lengths change at the whim of the school board depending on why survey has been read saying that 50 min classes are better than 90 min and so on. The school system has become a political playground and we are seeing the result of focusing on 'grades' over education.

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by gfodor on Saturday October 09, 2010 @12:16AM (#1774331)
I still fail to see why there is always this choice proposed that you can either have a educational system driven by test scores or have teachers who are able to teach students correctly, but not both.

Time and time again I hear the argument that teachers now have to "teach the test". If it's possible for a teacher to "teach the test", and students can pass it just by route memorization, well then surely these are some pretty horrible tests!

It's rare to hear people want to reform the actual format and content of the tests to ensure that "teaching the test" is less possible. You could argue, for example, allowing more free-form answers, or creative test formats that allow students to display critical thinking skills to the grader would do just as much to reduce the "teaching to the test problem" as throwing out tests as the primary means of evaluating performance, but you don't really hear this argument all that often.

Admittedly I know little about it, but I find it pretty hard to believe that the best teachers, who do engage their students and provide them a solid education, end up with classrooms of worldly students that end up failing standardized tests.

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by ronin358 on Saturday October 09, 2010 @12:56AM (#1774368)
I agree, the issue as it's argued tends to become a false dichotomy. I've always found testing to be one of the most effective techniques for learning. That's not to say standardized tests are most effective types of tests for learning, but they certainly have their place in a public educational system.

But hell, what do I know? I also think rote memorization gets a bad rap.

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by yummyfajitas on Saturday October 09, 2010 @08:58AM (#1774941)
Standardization is orthogonal to the issue of a well designed test. A simple illustrative example, based on a test of height:

Poor test design: no rule against standing on your toes.

Standardized test: all results must be reported in meters, as opposed to subjective units ("a wee bit taller than the person giving the test").

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by ronin358 on Saturday October 09, 2010 @12:31PM (#1775244)
In one sense, of course, you are right. But I was using the term as a shorthand for the state standardized tests used to measure academic progress grade by grade (e.g., CAT, TAKS). These state standardized tests tend to measure the minimum requirements for a grade level.

But for a test to be a learning technique, it must challenging enough to make the students study new material. Otherwise, it's just an excercise in "monkey see, monkey do."

Personally, I think the future of standardized tests will be like ACT's Compass college placement test, which progressively adapts to the level of the student as he/she is taking it, yet still results in a comparative standardized score.

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by zeraholladay on Saturday October 09, 2010 @01:18AM (#1774401)
What? I know Ivy League graduates that can't pass state issue driving tests. I've read articles about computer scientists that can't configure a thermostat. Badly designed marginal tasks are not an accurate measure of person's performance.
Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by zeraholladay on Saturday October 09, 2010 @12:56AM (#1774367)
The opinion card trumps the opinion card ad nauseum. However, I prefer well written (and civil) opinionated film reviews if for no other reason a strong opinion creates discussion and interest.

Further, specific and concrete examples of "good teachers" presented by either the film maker or reviewer would have been absurd (but the review's point was the the film didn't even attempt to address the issue of a good teacher). The notion of a "good teacher" is absurd, I think, because it doesn't exist. Consider your kindergarten teacher and advanced math prof. One was probably nurturing and kind, the other an expert in a complex subject. What do these two people have in common that can be communicated in the 90 minutes alloted to a film or the 5 minutes alloted to a blog post?

Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by WalterBright on Saturday October 09, 2010 @01:15AM (#1774393)
How does one master the material yet fail the test?
Re:The Real Problem with Waiting for Superman by TGJ on Saturday October 09, 2010 @09:05PM (#1776326)
That never happens. But I think you can pass the test without ever mastering the material. Sheer memorization will allow students to pass tests and only have a minimal understanding of what they have covered.