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Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by PeterisP on Monday August 06, 2018 @09:08AM (#17697213)
The argument to ban or regulate "facial recognition technology" seems futile. It's not (necessarily) some highly complicated secret software available to a limited number of organizations that could keep it under wraps - currently, any decent CS undergraduate student could make a passable facial recognition system as a study project if they really wanted to, using only generic, freely available image processing / machine learning resources (i.e. nothing specific to facial recognition that could be regulated or restricted). Sure, it won't be as good as state-of-art systems, and it will take enough time so they likely won't bother unless someone wants it bad enough to pay for a bunch of weeks of work, but it'll be sufficient for all the bad outcomes described in the article.

The barrier of entry is just too low. If a few pictures of your face are floating online, many people can make a system that will somewhat accurately try to detect your face; the best the regulation can do is to specify that organizations will not use facial recognition even if they trivially could.

Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by philipov on Monday August 06, 2018 @09:37AM (#17697377)
The point of legislation isn't to prevent people from doing something, but to create some consequences and make it so you can't be too brazen about it. For example, speed limits don't stop people from speeding, but they do reduce it. Those who speed will be more vigilant around corners watching for cops and this has some improvement on safety. Arguing that you shouldn't have speed limits just because it's too easy for anyone to speed so you can't have 100% enforcement misses the point.
Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by dsfyu404ed on Monday August 06, 2018 @10:05AM (#17697617)
Speed limits are a bad example. Unless you've got Orwellian enforcement most people go however fast they feel is reasonable for the conditions (which just so happens to usually not be that much more than the speed limit) and enforcement is basically a lottery with a large negative reward.

I agree with your point though.

Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by admiralEyebrows on Monday August 06, 2018 @11:47AM (#17698647)
In my experience drivers tend to keep the speed limit in mind regardless. If the drive is a 45 mph road, straight line, low traffic, and high visibility most drivers will still cap out around 70 mph. This is because depending on how fast you are going, in the small chance you do get pulled over the difference between going 70 and going 90 could be the difference between a warning and winding up with a high fine and multiple points on your license [1].

Even if it is a lottery, if you lose your penalty is determined by the sliding scale of how reckless you were. That is a major factor in how fast drivers feel is reasonable.

With facial recognition, the farther along we go the frequency of its use will increase. However having the equivalent of a sliding scale of punishment could be useful.

Did the police department use facial recognition to try and identify who broke into a store? O.K.

Did the police department use facial recognition to preemptively surveil a high crime rate area and identify and keep track of everyone that goes to that area? Warning.

Did the police department use facial recognition to identify minorities and keep track of their activity across the city? The police department is banned from using facial recognition in the future and if caught again will face punishment on a case by case basis.

Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by PeterisP on Monday August 06, 2018 @10:23AM (#17697790)
The main arguments of the article about why a ban would be needed are about using the technology for oppression by some local government. If they'd like to follow the suggestions of this article, they can simply voluntarily choose to abstain from using it; but if they don't choose to do so, then the rest of the world banning the technology won't make a difference.
Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by cfmcdonald on Monday August 06, 2018 @11:07AM (#17698236)
Since local governments in the U.S. have no sovereignty, the states to which they belong can certainly impose bans that would prevent them from using facial recognition technology. The federal government probably could do so as well, using the commerce clause.
Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by YeGoblynQueenne on Monday August 06, 2018 @11:41AM (#17698583)
>> It's not (necessarily) some highly complicated secret software available to a limited number of organizations that could keep it under wraps - currently, any decent CS undergraduate student could make a passable facial recognition system as a study project if they really wanted to, using only generic, freely available image processing / machine learning resources (i.e. nothing specific to facial recognition that could be regulated or restricted).

Well, stealing candy from a baby, or robbing an old woman is not hard to do either; anyone could do it, with even less skill than "a decent CS undergraduate student". Yet, it is illegal to do so and there will definitely be consequences to any such attempt.

In other words- something doesn't need to be hard to do, in order for it to be illegal, neither are there fewer consequences for performing illegal acts that are easy, rather than hard.

Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by candiodari on Monday August 06, 2018 @12:15PM (#17698943)
Governments, you know, those people you're counting on to make it illegal and catch ... themselves ? Are the primary users of facial recognition, as anyone who's gone through customs in any EU country can tell you.

Those very same governments are also the main problem with censorship, and of course, their agents (police, politicians, ...) have proven time and time again that they can't be trusted with a stick [1], and don't follow the law.

And this is ignoring the fact that governments frequently see themselves as exempted for the law. In many cases, they build this into the laws in the first place.

So what exactly are you proposing we do ? If governments use this, who really cares who else is abusing it ?

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_nAYd6Gpt4

Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by YeGoblynQueenne on Monday August 06, 2018 @05:28PM (#17701933)
I believe the idea is to ban the use of facial recognition by international agreement, in the same way that chemical and biological weapons, landmines and cluster munitions are banned (or at least controlled). The safeguarding of such a treaty is then left to some supra-national organisation, such as the UN, etc.

In any case, I don't understand what you propose we do. Governments can fail to uphold their own laws. Should we do away with all laws? And then- what? A life of total lawlessness is better than one where laws are sometimes broken by government?

Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by getcrunk on Monday August 06, 2018 @02:47PM (#17700388)
I didn’t see any egregious violence or breach of trust by the officers in ur video. Maybe I’m biased cus the cops where I live routinely send people to the icu or coroner for just being in the vicinity of a cop
Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by coldtea on Monday August 06, 2018 @05:09PM (#17701801)
>Maybe I’m biased cus the cops where I live routinely send people to the icu or coroner for just being in the vicinity of a cop

In western countries with civilized police and legal systems this is not tolerated.

Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by emiliobumachar on Monday August 06, 2018 @03:18PM (#17700785)
Laws limiting government power are a tried and true technique. They're no panacea, but a nice complement to the necessary eternal vigilance.
Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by zimablue on Monday August 06, 2018 @10:07AM (#17697635)
There's a difference between being able to recognize your ten friends and having a database of millions of people's faces.
Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by test6554 on Monday August 06, 2018 @10:31AM (#17697873)
I think the difference is not in how many people you can recognize, but what you do with the information.

* All existing laws should protect children, and protect people from discrimination. It should prevent the disclosure of health records. (So no AR apps that let you see who has what disease)

* The main concern is tracking people's location and movements and taking photographs and tagging people on social media sites.

* Some potential benefits are reducing crime and a "call parents" app that lets you call the parents of a misbehaving child without actually identifying the child to the person who has the app.

Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by PeterisP on Monday August 06, 2018 @10:28AM (#17697839)
Regulating the storage and processing of private biometric data might be a more realistic approach than regulating technology - that database of millions of people's faces is pretty much the only boundary between recognizing your ten friends and mass surveillance; the tech is quite similar but the data matters a lot.
Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by zimablue on Monday August 06, 2018 @10:31AM (#17697870)
Yeah but this seems like a kind of pointless side-channel. Let's just assume that by the time this hits legislation the restriction will be on applying facial recognition and storing data on people's faces. Yeah we know you can implement it, we all did the coursera course on convnets.
Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by candiodari on Monday August 06, 2018 @12:20PM (#17698996)
The police already has the millions of faces databases. So does customs, border patrol, the IRS, and more.
Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by shbm on Monday August 06, 2018 @09:32AM (#17697356)
I absolutely agree with this. I myself implemented the Facenet paper with minor modifications as an undergrad project which started the face recognition revolution. If one has proper data, a neat prototype can be developed even on a decent i5 system in under a couple of hours. You don't even need GPUs because of pertained model. The tech in this domain is really cheap and readily available out there.
Re:Facial Recognition Is the Perfect Tool for Oppression by bsenftner on Monday August 06, 2018 @09:46AM (#17697450)
Any ban would be pointless. "Facial recognition" stopped being about faces some time ago, and now the more advanced systems look at everything from the shoulder tops on up - additional information from the shoulders, neck, ears, and so on provide additional discerning characteristics.

If "facial recognition" were banned, organizations would just start ignoring the face and proceed with other characteristics. The world of biometrics is huge, and the whole reason facial recognition is the biometric people pick on is because it is the easiest for laypeople to grasp.

This is article is nearly obsolete fear propaganda. We're getting wise to this crap, as the fear card is being played far too often, it's become the boy who cried wolf.