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Re:Legal AI and the Industrialisation of Cognition (2017) by rayiner on Saturday August 04, 2018 @09:46AM (#17686816)
At first I thought this was a fiction story in a hypothetical 2035. The dramatic description of legal technology is completely at odds with my experience. I’m a young, technologically savvy guy who happens to be a lawyer, and I’ve never even used, for example, “AI” discovery. Not for want of economic motivation—I’ve pored through documents manually in contingency cases where having an instant AI answer would have been a god send. But what the article makes it seem like legal tech can do, and what it can actually do, are two things with a vast chasm between.

For example, “AI” discovery requires tons of handholding and careful training/QA. The process is so complicated, it’s really only practical for very large document sets. Ironically, these huge document sets only tend to arise in highly valuable commercial litigation, where clients have strong incentives to demand human second level review anyway, mitigating much of the cost advantage. In practice, the biggest advance in discovery in the last 10-15 years has actually been culling document sets based in search terms (“fake” NEAR “testing results”).

The article also takes a jab at legal outsourcing and makes it seem like AI has had a bigger impact than outsourcing. Not so. The trend of clients demanding that low level work be outsourced to contract attorneys has had ten times the impact on law firm economics compared to any legal technology invented in the last decade.

At bottom, the article is based on a fundamental mistake about the industry:

> What kind of repeat buyer lets the seller push the price up every year for doing the same thing in the same way, where the product stays the same and there is no improvement in the outcome? One answer to that is: a buyer who is faced by a monopoly.

Today’s clients are savvy. They’ll bring in half a dozen firms to pitch any substantial matter, getting dozens of hours of free legal analysis from each just as table stakes. Fees are capped, rates are discounted, and success-based fee arrangements are routine. The legal industry is stiffly competitive, even at the very top. (Thanks to conflicts rules, consolidation in law has been limited. So there are dozens of firms that you would consider just the “top firms”).

On the whole, lawyers keep getting more expensive for the same reason as programmers in Silicon Valley or nannies in Manhattan. The stakes are high compared to the costs, and there is a rush to quality even in light of economic concerns.

Re:Legal AI and the Industrialisation of Cognition (2017) by MR4D on Saturday August 04, 2018 @05:11PM (#17688444)
After reading the article, I came to a different conclusion- that the lawyer writing the article would consider LegalZoom to be AI.

That being said, for many lawyers, the difference is probably indiscernible - too many are stuck in the dark ages.

We fired our corporate lawyer earlier his year because the focus seemed to be on billing hours not solving problems. We found a better and cheaper lawyer who isn’t afraid of piecing together boilerplate to create a rough draft is a short period of time - our previous one had hand written it!!! Insanity.

Re:Legal AI and the Industrialisation of Cognition (2017) by paultopia on Saturday August 04, 2018 @09:51AM (#17686835)
Yeah, agreed. The overselling in the legal tech crowd is astonishing sometimes.
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Re:Legal AI and the Industrialisation of Cognition (2017) by rayiner on Saturday August 04, 2018 @05:22PM (#17688481)
> P.s. the idea that legal costs only increase because clients value the work more is a red herring. The legal market is not truly a market as the buyers at a corporate level are other lawyers who are spending other people’s money (that of the shareholders).

That's true of all corporate officers. That's why companies put in place incentive structures that align workers' goals with the company's. The idea that in-house counsel are putting the abstract interests of outside counsel ahead of their personal interests in career progression, bonuses, etc., is a very odd one.

> But, your defence of the status quo is to be expected by someone who benefits from it being that way.

This trope ignores the realities of legal billing. There are enormous cost and efficiency pressures in the legal industry. Even for billable-hour matters, clients have a "soft cap" in mind and even the top firms write off 10-20% of billings as a result. Fixed-fee arrangements and hybrid arrangements are also routine. For example, many companies have arrangements where a firm will handle all of the company's litigation in a particular area, or certain portfolios of cases, for a fixed monthly fee. If I'm going to get, say, a million dollars a month to handle a case, regardless of hours, why won't I use some "legal AI" to minimize my investment? If I'm a plaintiff's lawyer, and work entirely on contingency, or doing fixed fee divorces, why wouldn't I leverage every AI tool available?

Your explanation is plausible for the guys billing hours defending Altria from tobacco litigation. But it's laughable as applied to the majority of lawyers.

Re:Legal AI and the Industrialisation of Cognition (2017) by artificiallawya on Sunday August 05, 2018 @01:37AM (#17689875)
AI isn’t just for big firms. In fact smaller firms are under more pressure to be efficient. See: https://www.artificiallawyer.com/2018/07/19/casetext-and-the...

Also many medium size law firms are using AI systems now. See: https://www.artificiallawyer.com/2018/07/03/tuesday-luminanc... And, https://www.artificiallawyer.com/2018/06/19/israels-tadmor-l... Neither of those two firms are massive, but they both still see the value. Also AI systems are not as expensive as you may think. P.s. I’ve worked in the legal sector for 20 years. Well aware of how billing works, and things now are changing esp. re. Any process level work. May I ask which firm you work at?

Re:Legal AI and the Industrialisation of Cognition (2017) by petra on Saturday August 04, 2018 @02:51PM (#17688005)
Are there any guesses on how large the share of law that could be automated in the near future ?
Re:Legal AI and the Industrialisation of Cognition (2017) by HeadInTheClouds on Saturday August 04, 2018 @10:04AM (#17686885)
I think that AI/Machine learning has made a big impact on the Ediscovery part of the legal industry. The use of ML commonly known as Predictive Coding does appear to reduce the number of hours required to find relevant documents in a large corpus.

There is a lot of noise about the use of AI in other areas of law, but I suspect (in common with other industries) this is just part of the hype cycle. That is not to say that the use of AI is not on the rise, but the article likely overstates its use.

Re:Legal AI and the Industrialisation of Cognition (2017) by artificiallawya on Saturday August 04, 2018 @12:47PM (#17687522)
Re. Overstating use, far from it. This piece is from 2017, since then adoption of NLP/ML systems has rapidly grown among the leading law firms eg AmLaw 100 and UK 100. Even excluding ediscovery systems the use of AI Tech for review work has hugely increased - sufficient to keep a daily blog going just to keep up with all that is happening. Don’t get complacent. Things among larger firms are starting to change.