Clojure isn’t really worth anything without the jvm/js ecosystem.

It’s a glue language for assembling components, most of which are written in Java.

Timothy Baldridge wrote a python based language heavily inspired by clojure called Pixie. That gives a feel for what clojure is like without the ecosystem. Basically it means reinventing many many wheels.

I don’t know—there are certainly some interesting / different things in Clojure as compared to other lisps. Even if you can technically do much of what Clojure can do in other lisps, idiomatic Clojure has a feeling that is distinct from CL, Scheme, or even Racket.

If Clojure offers nothing without the large JVM/JS ecosystems, then we could say the same about most languages (that aren't the size of Java/JS).

If it’s that the distinct cocktail of features and ideas in the language aren’t worth anything, then I’d respectfully disagree. But at that point we’d simply be arguing aesthetic preferences.

Well that's the problem isn't it.

Any new language today has little to compete with existing languages in terms language features, the competition is in terms or the library ecosystems, online help and overall ecosystem. That takes time and money to build.

Given how large the Java ecosystem is, and what it took in terms of money and time to go there is not easy or even possible to match in any relative comparison.

So it makes sense to make sacrifices(if needed) to re use all that Java work that has been done and has been going on over the years.

Clojure is the best thing that has happened to Lisp in years.

Agreed, regarding the effort required to compete on completeness. However, somewhere in between “fad language of the week” and “let’s use nothing but C, because nothing will ever compete” I do think there’s room for new languages.

I’m old enough to remember a time when Java and JavaScript didn’t exist. They, for better or worse, climbed Mt. Improbable to become widespread. Ditto Python. I’d sure love to believe that a better set of languages could also climb that mountain.

Clojure has certainly gotten a leg up by grafting itself onto Java’s ecosystem, but as you point out, there are sacrifices (stack traces, and inability to support things like TCO for two). Ultimately, I’d love to see a combination of two things happen:

- More libraries that work across all implementations of Clojure

- At least one or two implementations of Clojure where the mismatch between the host platform and Clojure is minimized to useful effect.

On the last point, I’d love to see Clojure hosted on Common Lisp. I don’t hold much hope for this given the toxic reaction that many Common Lispers have for Clojure, but I can see benefits in both directions.

For Clojurists, CL has the benefit of running in lots of different contexts with some useful performance characteristics in some cases (SBCL, I’m looking at you). I also believe a Clojure-on-CL implementation would have the possibility of good stack traces.

For Common Lisp, rather than Clojure just being a mindshare theif, pure-Clojure libraries would become usable to the CL community.

Sadly, I think we’ve already achieved peak collaboration between the Clojure and CL communities. The people who liked what Clojure was about already enthusiastically left, and the remainder seem to mostly harbor sour grapes.

> Clojure is the best thing that has happened to Java in years.

FTFY