News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by thermodynthrway on Thursday July 26, 2018 @12:24AM (#17615040)
The real answer is star navigation at night and interial + sun guided during the day. Phone hardware is perfectly capable but ITAR says otherwise. There's a reason why every legal GPS receiver shuts down after altitude or speed limits are exceeded. Too easy to make weapons that fly in your window from hundreds of miles away, basically
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by njarboe on Thursday July 26, 2018 @01:52AM (#17615322)
From mynameisvlad link given below[1] the restrictions are to prevent intercontinental missile navigation not regular missile navigation. The official limits are a speed (1,000 knots) and an altitude (18,000 m), but many manufactures do an "or" test instead.

"In GPS technology, the term "COCOM Limits" also refers to a limit placed on GPS tracking devices that disables tracking when the device calculates that it is moving faster than 1,000 knots (1,900 km/h; 1,200 mph) at an altitude higher than 18,000 m (59,000 ft).[2] This was intended to prevent the use of GPS in intercontinental ballistic missile-like applications.

Some manufacturers apply this limit only when both speed and altitude limits are reached, while other manufacturers disable tracking when either limit is reached. In the latter case, this causes some devices to refuse to operate in very high altitude balloons."

[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoCom

Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by petee on Thursday July 26, 2018 @08:14AM (#17616792)
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by jliptzin on Thursday July 26, 2018 @12:52AM (#17615139)
Is it really so hard for a determined terrorist to build his own gps receiver? Or at least modify one to remove that limitation?
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by TeMPOraL on Thursday July 26, 2018 @02:58AM (#17615559)
They don't need to. There is a great many of more cost-effective ways of causing havoc, and even if they really wanted to use GPS-guided missiles, it's probably a better bet to build slower missiles with consumer hardware, but build a lot of them - missile interceptors are very expensive. If a DIY $1k missile needs to be shot down by $1M Patriot, they'll be doing lots of damage with a couple of them, without even hitting anything.
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by thermodynthrway on Thursday July 26, 2018 @01:15AM (#17615216)
Yes. Look at the ham hobby, hardly any of them can pick up GPS signals, despite the technology being literally everywhere
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by oh_sigh on Thursday July 26, 2018 @01:39AM (#17615282)
That's not true at all. You can use a $20 SDR card to receive GPS signals and and then can decode them on any commodity laptop, or a small computer like a raspberry pi.

e.g. https://www.rtl-sdr.com/receiving-gps-with-an-rtl-sdr-dongle...

Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by berti on Thursday July 26, 2018 @02:15AM (#17615403)
Receiving the signals is only a part of the problem, and even getting a "fix" isn't all that hard. Maintaining an accurate fix, and at the same time refining away previous errors, on a fast moving vehicle, is a dark art.
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by londons_explore on Thursday July 26, 2018 @03:07AM (#17615599)
Software architectures are the limiting factor here.

Every app on your phone cares about "Where am I now", but no app wants to know "Where was I 5 seconds ago, but with more accuracy than you knew when I last asked".

Neither android not iPhone have an API to allow GPS hardware to refine the accuracy of historic position locations.

Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by thermodynthrway on Thursday July 26, 2018 @01:42AM (#17615295)
Possible maybe but unusual. 99% of ham is narrowband, GPS is spread across a megahertz. Somebody goofed and made a TV tuner chip that could be used as an SDR at that sample rate, and I'm sure the powers that be arent happy.
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by Johnythree on Thursday July 26, 2018 @09:31AM (#17617288)
You what?

Any sensitive Spectrum Analyser or SDR can see the bump in the spectrum caused by the GPS Signals. And quite a few amateurs have built homebrew GPS receivers.

Or they can buy a little GPS module and use the data stream for a huge range of projects.

Most modern digital Ham communication methods require a 10MHz feed from a GPS module to maintain sufficient time and frequency accuracy.

Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by thermodynthrway on Thursday July 26, 2018 @09:40AM (#17617388)
Too late to edit so replying to myself. I was mostly wrong. The GPS limits are much higher than I thought, and accuracy of INS is too low, although I still think that limit is artificial.
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by IshKebab on Thursday July 26, 2018 @03:13AM (#17615637)
Yes the real answer is some impractical nonsense. Star navigation? Are you serious?
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by ce4 on Thursday July 26, 2018 @12:54AM (#17615150)
I beg to disagree. My phones have all gotten a lock on planes so far.
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by thermodynthrway on Thursday July 26, 2018 @01:18AM (#17615225)
The limits are higher altitude and faster speed then you've ever been. If the Concorde was around you would see it firsthand. Weapons would be worthless against first world defences at airliner height and speed. Gps receivers shut down on weather balloons regularly, it's a known issue

The limits are real, encoded in public law. I don't understand how you could possibly disagree with me on this point

Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by ce4 on Thursday July 26, 2018 @02:04AM (#17615359)
Ignore the comment above, obviously ignorance :) Thanks for explaining.
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by thermodynthrway on Thursday July 26, 2018 @09:29AM (#17617278)
It's okay, I was wrong about what the limits are too. They've been increased a lot
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by sannee on Thursday July 26, 2018 @02:36AM (#17615469)
The reason your GPS receiver does not work on a plane is likely because it's processing algorithms aren't tuned for those speeds. The popular Ublox NEO-6M for example needs to be explicitly switched to "airborne" mode.

The fact that you are enclosed in a faraday cage also isn't helping, but they make planes from plastic now, so this shouldn't always be the case.

Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by mynameisvlad on Thursday July 26, 2018 @01:16AM (#17615217)
Planes don’t usually reach the limits, but they exist. The limits seem to be 1200mph or 59000ft altitude.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoCom

Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by njarboe on Thursday July 26, 2018 @01:54AM (#17615326)
1200mph and 59000ft altitude
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by ProblemFactory on Thursday July 26, 2018 @04:39AM (#17615972)
Unfortunately many cheap GPS chips use the (incorrect) or definition, not and. It was a pain to find one that works above 59000ft but very slow speed for a weather balloon project some years ago.
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by njarboe on Thursday July 26, 2018 @01:38AM (#17615280)
I like using a NSF funded mobile app "Flyover Country" [1] to identify features in the landscape when I fly. You can download the maps and data for you flight path a head of time and then use it in airplane mode on the plane. GPS works fine (by the window) and the app locates your position on the map.

https://flyovercountry.io/

Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by SmellyGeekBoy on Thursday July 26, 2018 @05:29AM (#17616146)
Odd that you'd think that aircraft would be covered by these restrictions considering the fact that they use GPS to navigate.
Re:The World Economy Runs on GPS. It Needs a Backup Plan by itsameta4 on Thursday July 26, 2018 @10:50AM (#17617909)
There's not a ton of civilian craft cruising about at nearly Mach 2.