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Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by russellbeattie on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @11:26AM (#17609992)
I think if we in the U.S. stopped killing people in senseless wars, we could use some of the trillions we spend on that to both fund medical research and fly to Mars. But that's obviously a fantasy.
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by endymi0n on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @11:46AM (#17610147)
Then again, for the 700 billion dollars defense budget you'd get free universal healthcare and higher education for all of the US — AND would still have a few dozen billions to spare on cancer and Mars expeditions... but who in their right mind would want that?
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by geezerjay on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @01:15PM (#17610955)
You're missing the fact that the US military is in its core a employment and social services program used extensively to create artificial jobs and artificial demand for skilled labour and high-tech products and services.

Not to mention the cultural importance that the US military as an institution has on the US, of course.

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by freehunter on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @02:03PM (#17611356)
And those skilled labor and high-tech products and services would transition extraordinarily well to a space-based economy.
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by geezerjay on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @02:17PM (#17611479)
What exactly makes you believe that rocket science is a domain that's easy to transition into?
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by freehunter on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @02:21PM (#17611506)
Very little about space is rocket science. Cars are really hard to build and it took thousands of years for mankind to build one, but that doesn't mean the person changing your oil has to know how to fabricate one from scratch in his garage. There are thousands of job titles around the auto industry that require zero knowledge of how cars work.
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by qaq on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @12:49PM (#17610679)
40% of US GDP is financial services it would be hard to argue that you could preserve that without being dominant military power.
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by adventured on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @02:41PM (#17611702)
Financial services - including insurance - are 7.5% of the US economy, not 40%.

https://www.selectusa.gov/financial-services-industry-united...

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by qaq on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @03:29PM (#17612066)
Most places put it at around 20% I am def off on the 40% figure. (might be the % of exports?)
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by clarkmoody on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @02:38PM (#17611679)
I would blame the size of the financial services sector on the Fed and inflationary money. I don't see what military power has to do with it?

What's the size of the financial sector of Luxembourg or Switzerland?

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by qaq on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @03:20PM (#17612000)
Well name 1 other country that cab increase money supply the way FED does yet maintains the status of world's reserve currency? Luxembourg nobody cares on a global scale. Switzerland has extremely competent military and they are def. not in a position to manipulate the currency the way FED does and remain a viable financial center.
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by rsync on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @04:00PM (#17612286)
"Switzerland has extremely competent military and they are def. not in a position to manipulate the currency the way FED does and remain a viable financial center."

Well, actually, since you brought it up ...

The SNB has been buying euros, and other currencies (selling swiss francs) since 2011 in an effort to depress its value, which they believe is too high and hurts their exports.

Here is a decent summary of the events leading up to their interventions and the current scenario:

https://admiralmarkets.com/analytics/traders-blog/price-shoc...

In summary, the CHF is viewed by many market participants as a safe-haven, or reserve currency (especially in Europe) and the Swiss National Bank has been acting, unilaterally, for many years to manipulate the CHF downwards in value.

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by qaq on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @04:35PM (#17612563)
Thats an interesting read I was not aware this was done at this scale. But still hard to remove military from equation.
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by arkis22 on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @09:26PM (#17614425)
Switzerland has been manipulating their currency for almost a decade now. The central bank has been consistently selling reserves to keep their currency low.

The USD is the world's reserve currency because we have a balance of being the largest economy with a fair rule of law, lots of real estate, 50 competing states, natural resources, and the manufacturing expertise that means if anything goes super wrong we're the best place to be.

Luxembourg and Switzerland also have a history of being tax havens.

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by mtgx on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @12:52PM (#17610723)
You wouldn't need that much for free healthcare. Remember people already pay a ton for healthcare. You'd just repackage those payments into taxes for free universal healthcare and then the government would have to pay the difference.
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by zaroth on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @02:04PM (#17611370)
This word “free” you keep using.... I’m not sure it means what you think it means?
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by fucking_tragedy on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @02:10PM (#17611416)
This point you're making is pretty pedantic considering the OP clearly recognizes that funding for universal healthcare comes from somewhere, they say as much themselves.
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by zaroth on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @02:55PM (#17611806)
I mean, that was kinda the point?
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by joe5150 on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @04:44PM (#17612643)
"Free" as in "free at the point of use" is a well-understood concept
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by adventured on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @02:39PM (#17611690)
You're underestimating the cost of US healthcare per capita by an extreme amount. Universal healthcare would cost a minimum of $3.6 trillion (that's an ideal scenario where the US gets its per capita spending down to other high spending nations), and a more likely ~$4.5 trillion.

Higher education for all would cost at least $600 billion (close to the existing spending for all post secondary institutions annually), more likely $750b+ with the cost expansion that would entail.

You obviously can't eliminate all of the US defense budget. That would be wildly irrational and dangerous. Let's say the best you can do is a 2% of GDP expenditure rate, or roughly $400 billion per year.

That $300 billion directed at universal healthcare would pay for the healthcare of 20 million people, 6% of the US population.

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by Aloisius on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @06:42PM (#17613587)
> Universal healthcare would cost a minimum of $3.6 trillion (that's an ideal scenario where the US gets its per capita spending down to other high spending nations)

Mmm. No.

In 2016, government spending on healthcare would have been lowered by $435 billion and covered every single American if we somehow had transplanted Canada's healthcare system and costs to the US.

Total healthcare spending (including co-pay and what not), would have been lowered by $1.6 trillion.

Indeed, we could have increased to coverage to every American just with the government healthcare spending we already have with a similar transplant of all but 3 countries systems/costs the OECD collects data for.

That said, that would all be taken right out of the GDP hitting the economy pretty hard.

--

US Federal healthcare spending (2016): $944.1 billion

US State & local healthcare spending (2016): $564.5 billion

Total gov spending (2016): $944.1 + $564.5 = $1.508 trillion

Canada govt spending (2016): $3,319 per capita

US population (2016): 323.4 million

Cost with Canada's system (2016): $3,319 * 323.4M = $1.073 trillion

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by mercutio2 on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @08:35PM (#17614215)
“If we somehow transplanted Canada’s healthcare system and costs”

Get back to me when you’ve convinced US healthcare workers to take a 30-50% pay cut. Until then, US healthcare will remain more expensive than developed countries that don’t routinely compensate doctors and nurses at the level we do.

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by aaroninsf on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @09:47PM (#17614506)
This is incorrect.

The cost of care in this country is not a function of salary; it's a function of grotesque inefficiencies in the system.

When I dug into this during the attempt to repeal the ACA, what I found was the US pays 50% to many times more per capita for much worse outcomes than any other first world nation, with comparisons against Japan being particularly bleak.

Furthermore, that is the result of systemic inefficiencies here resulting from, in a nutshell, protected oligopolies and preservation of profits.

One underreported aspect of the ACA was that in order to secure recalcitrant GOP votes, the Democrats essentially caved on everything other their mandatory features–namely, on allowing the GOP to engineer in changes written by the health care industry and IMO extorted at gunpoint.

The result has been clear, the industry has enjoyed record profits since the ACA passed. So much so that one of the problems with the attempt to appeal it or weaken it was that the GOP and its industry interest groups had already gotten most of the things on their wish list.

The worst part of this trainwreck is that for much more money, we enjoy far worse outcomes when you consider most any metric that matters to people: life expectancy, infant mortality, incidence of chronic disease, incidence of disruptive mental illness, incidence of opiate addiction, and so on. In all of these we trail not only the rest of the first world but many countries in the developing world.

There are other factors such as a diet and lifestyle distorted by e.g. the sugar lobby, but even when you 'correct' for those things, the quality of service we get does not make for healthy or happy citizens.

Then add the likelihood of personal bankruptcy or financial ruin as the result of carefully engineered carefully obscured limitations on coverage.

None of this is particularly hidden or hard to uncover; it's just utterly obscured by GOP empty distracting whipping horse talking points and scare tactics.

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by mercutio2 on Thursday July 26, 2018 @09:36AM (#17617343)
What part of your comment is responsive to “total cost of healthcare is dominated by labor” other than “that is incorrect”?

There are, of course, inefficiencies in every system, and without a doubt, the US system of health care has more than universal health care.

We might be able to shave 10% off the health care system by doing away with those inefficiencies, and conceivably another 5% by bulk negotiating on pharmaceuticals.

But given the (I believe correct) statistics that are bandied about showing the US healthcare system is 50-75% more expensive than other systems, where do you think the rest of that money is going?

It’s labor.

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by aaroninsf on Thursday July 26, 2018 @02:09PM (#17619512)
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by yonkshi on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @04:42PM (#17612628)
Would you please provide some sources on all your numbers? those are some astronomical numbers and are essential in validating your point.

Edit: I did some of my own research, UHC take 8~11% GDP in other countries. That would put us around 1.8 trillion (2016 GDP). Much less than $3.5 trillion you claimed.

Plus, US is already spending 16% of GDP (~3 trillion) on health care, despite not having universal healthcare. 11% GDP for UHC does not seem like a bad idea to me

source: https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by mercutio2 on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @08:41PM (#17614239)
Universal health care isn’t magic pixie dust.

The way UHC costs less is by paying doctors and nurses less. Negotiating lower pharmaceutical rates and reducing billing costs is nice and all, but it’s tiny compared to labor costs.

It turns out, doctors and nurses are very popular, and they vote their economic interest. Good luck getting UHC in the US that pays them less.

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by Aloisius on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @06:12PM (#17613396)
Remember, government spending increases the GDP. You'd have to get closer to $2 trillion to hit 11% if, for some reason, one wanted to use that as a target rather than per-capita spending.
Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by orthecreedence on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @05:13PM (#17612866)
> You're underestimating the cost of US healthcare per capita by an extreme amount. Universal healthcare would cost a minimum of $3.6 trillion (that's an ideal scenario where the US gets its per capita spending down to other high spending nations), and a more likely ~$4.5 trillion.

I think you're forgetting that right now, the cost of healthcare is externalized to the citizens. So, yes, we'd pay more in taxes for socialized healthcare, but we get more in our paycheck because our companies don't have to deal with private health insurance anymore. Especially with the mandate...everyone is aalready paying for health care in some form or other.

Not to mention that many projections show socialized healthcare would be a net gain as far as money being spent goes.

In other words, socialized healthcare would more than pay for itself, if US citizens weren't so fucking stupid about labeling things "socialism" when it has nothing to do with the workers seizing the means of production.

Re:Liquid water 'lake' revealed on Mars by clarkmoody on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @02:36PM (#17611665)
But think of all the DoD employees who would lose their jobs! And the Lockheed Martin engineers! And their hungry children!

/s