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Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by cageface on Saturday July 21, 2018 @12:41PM (#17582579)
I watched a good friend freak out in front of me on a bad trip. Almost thirty years later he's still not the same and needs antipsychotic medication to function. This kind of thing isn't common but it can definitely happen.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by Gatsky on Saturday July 21, 2018 @07:47PM (#17584482)
The rate of psychosis in clinical studies appears to be very low, and they carefully select research subjects.

I would suggest that psychedelics cannot take a person with zero risk of developing psychosis, and make them psychotic. There are many apparent triggers for mental illness eg a failed relationship, a drug binge, losing your job, giving birth etc, and we don’t treat these as causal events. Psychedelics are most likely no different. People at risk of developing psychosis may have a greater willingness to try psychedelics as well, creating a biased sample.

If we ever do get regulated access to psychedelics, it will need some process to exclude ‘at risk’ persons. This will be crude and highly exclusionary at the start. Over time, genomics and brain imaging may allow more careful selection of those who can take psychedelics safely.

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by tcj_phx on Sunday July 22, 2018 @11:52AM (#17587312)
> People at risk of developing psychosis

Psychosis is an episodic condition caused by metabolic failure. Contributing factors include malnourishment, alcohol withdrawal, chronic stress, certain prescription and OTC drugs, street drugs, etc. People would recover from psychosis if given supportive treatment - good nutrition, B-vitamins (liver, yeast, etc), appropriate pro-metabolic prescriptions, naltrexone to keep them off alcohol, etc.

My observations of the standard treatments forced on "psychotic" patients is that they are only useful for preventing the patient's recovery. My aunt's friend was always sort of 'off', now she's dying of liver failure. Didn't know until now that she's been on maintenance antipsychotics for decades, even though the trigger for her episode concluded decades ago.

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by flatline on Saturday July 21, 2018 @06:40PM (#17584224)
It can happen with various meditation and yogic practices as well, and the effects can be just as severe and long lasting. I suspect that some people’s minds are in an unstable equilibrium that, when perturbed, sends them way off balance, and it is a state that no one would have been privy to before some traumatic experience acted as a trigger.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by rufugee on Saturday July 21, 2018 @01:12PM (#17582713)
It's entirely possible that LSD uncovered or accentuated an underlying flaw in your friend's psyche...
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by arkades on Saturday July 21, 2018 @01:51PM (#17582917)
I don’t understand this common response at all.

If I prescribe penicillin to a patient with a pcn allergy, the fact that I “uncovered an underlying flaw” is irrelevant. Pcn is dangerous to them and should not be prescribed to them.

This is true, in one sense or another, of the majority of adverse effects people have from medications given in therapeutic ranges. It’s basically what having an adverse effect -means-.

It doesn’t mean that medication shouldn’t be given when appropriate, but it’s not a rationale for deflecting attention from the risks of the medication.

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by ChristianBundy on Saturday July 21, 2018 @02:10PM (#17583015)
The difference is that penicillin allergies can only be triggered by penicillin (or maybe penicillin-adjacent analogues). Mental illnesses and psychedelics don't work the same way.

Psychedelics bring these issues to the forefront, but they don't necessarily cause mental health issues, as the same issues could happen without LSD. I understand what you're trying to express with your example of penicillin, but it's not the same thing.

In my opinion, it would be more accurate to compare psychedelic drugs to activities like meditation and fasting, which also have a risk of anxiety, discomfort, and bringing out dormant mental health issues in some people.

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by ada1981 on Saturday July 21, 2018 @02:59PM (#17583269)
A good mindset of psychedelic use is that you’d like things to be brought to the surface so they can be worked with and integrated.

This is precisely what makes them such useful tools for things like PTSD and why it can be a bummer if someone does Molly at a rave and winds up with a memory of being molested and her friends are too busy doing K to talk with her.

In a safe and supportive setting, this is exactly what can help people heal.

It’s when things get uncovered but not fully released and processed they can occupy ones life.

A good psychedelic therapist or sitter should be able to help someone integrat a current or former bad trip.

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by Fnoord on Saturday July 21, 2018 @07:18PM (#17584377)
> In my opinion, it would be more accurate to compare psychedelic drugs to activities like meditation and fasting

I've done all 3 of these (meditation as in mindfulness), and I disagree.

Of these 3, meditation is the most harmless. It is relaxing, not discomforting (I'll hook into this again at the end of my post).

Someone can start meditating or fasting without guidance (though I recommend guidance in both cases, especially concerning fasting) and resume normal life whenever they feel like it. With psychedelics, that one doesn't fly and if you do meditation in a group such as a 10 day Vipassana course or are in a religion or cult being forced to fast then you might also feel the same pressure. But that's an outlier; in general, meditation doesn't have such -or any- pressure. It is relaxing.

Finally, I've followed a mindfulness course for people with autism and there is no such thing as that with regards to psychedelics. The psychedelics also affected my autism, and in some situations made it much worse. All of that while I wasn't aware I had autism!

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by ta1234567890 on Sunday July 22, 2018 @03:00PM (#17588240)
> It is relaxing, not discomforting

Meditation practice is not relaxing at all. The effect after meditating might be in part feeling relaxed, but in general meditation is pretty hard work.

This is probably a very common misconception, you see all the pictures of people meditating at the beach in front of a beautiful sunset and think that meditating is like going to the spa, when in fact meditating is much more like the mental equivalent of going to the gym.

Also, in many occasions (especially during a 10 day retreat like Vipassana), it can be very uncomfortable if not outright physically painful (although usually never dangerous).

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by Fnoord on Sunday July 22, 2018 @03:47PM (#17588545)
For me mindfulness is far more relaxing than studying, watching a TV series, working, programming, etc (all "active" things). Never mind socializing which is the opposite of relaxing to me, ALWAYS (autism-related). Although it differs per technique (some are easier and fit me more than others).

Especially the effect after it makes that work more fruitful, since for various hours I'll be less tense and more focused. For example, it'd make socializing more relaxing.

Those are 2 very valid reasons for me to call it relaxing. Then again, I find running and listening to certain music also relaxing. Because after a while, I get in an automated flow ("trance") akin to meditating.

The 3rd reason is that if I'm rather tired, mindfulness can potentially get me to sleep. I often (almost daily) do it before I go to sleep, and it aids me to get to sleep. I much prefer it over: overthinking, fantasizing, or masturbating/sex.

Its already painful for me to meditate whilst sitting instead of lying but one gets used to that. Its just untrained muscles getting trained. As long as you don't strain yourself, you're fine.

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by yosito on Saturday July 21, 2018 @07:09PM (#17584343)
Psychedelics are not just spiritual/mental. They can literally alter your brain chemistry and, in rare cases, cause severe adverse effects. There need to be more studies done on the brain chemistry so we know how to predict and prevent those adverse effects.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by psychedictic on Saturday July 21, 2018 @01:44PM (#17582877)
This is the common response from proponents of LSD. To them, it's never the LSD, and instead the adverse reaction must be because the person had a mind that was predisposed to some sort of mental illness.

Even if it's true that someone has some kind of latent / dormant condition that is ultimately triggered by the LSD, then the act of taking the LSD itself was the catalyst, and the person would have been far better off not ever having taken the drug.

The drug is illegal, and the argument growing up was that the "government was suppressing free thought" or whatever nonsense was being pushed, but the reality is that such a drug is dangerous and absolutely does hurt people. Whether connected to a predisposition of mental illness or not, it's not a hard connection and people should be extra cautious when considering whether to engage in such behavior.

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by sev on Saturday July 21, 2018 @02:27PM (#17583118)
Care should be taken, like with any substance we ingest. However, I disagree with your premise.

We do not know if LSD was in fact the catalyst. We don’t know if the people who got ruined after taking a single tab of LSD actually took LSD or some research chemical (which are quite commonly sold off as LSD).

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by yeahforsureman on Sunday July 22, 2018 @07:52AM (#17586305)
Some research psychedelics are more dangerous physically, and certainly less researched, but in terms of psychological effects, all psychedelics are generally pretty similar. It's silly to assume LSD is somehow significantly less likely to cause psychological trouble.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by erikpukinskis on Sunday July 22, 2018 @12:31AM (#17585294)
Yeah, 2CI is for example very dangerous psychologically, and I’m sure it gets sold as LSD when an unscrupulous dealer has excess inventory.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by prolikewh0a on Saturday July 21, 2018 @11:31PM (#17585147)
>The drug is illegal

>but the reality is that such a drug is dangerous and absolutely does hurt people.

With this reasoning, skydiving, base jumping, and even the act of simply driving a car should should also be illegal. We let people do far more dangerous things, yet keep them legal. There is another reason LSD & most psychedelics are illegal. What that is, I don't know.

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by telchar on Saturday July 21, 2018 @02:31PM (#17583146)
What's your evidence that those people are worse off having taken the psychedelics? You can't know the counterfactual isn't that those people who respond poorly to the drug would have had a similar mental break without it. Until the drug is studied rigorously all we have to go on are conflicting anecdotes. That said in the face of a lack of reliable information caution is warranted.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by tomerv on Saturday July 21, 2018 @03:22PM (#17583394)
Even if that person would not have taken LSD and would have had a psychotic episode 5 years later due to the underlying issue, that's still 5 years of good health lost because of LSD.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by erikpukinskis on Sunday July 22, 2018 @12:40AM (#17585311)
Or it’s 5 years less of post-treatment life.

We can make random guesses all day about what’s a good outcome but how about we leave it to medical researchers to actually figure out what’s safe and beneficial?

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by cgag on Sunday July 22, 2018 @04:28AM (#17585844)
It seems pretty delusional to just say these people would have spontaneously lost their minds even if they didn't do extremely powerful mind altering drugs.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by TomMarius on Sunday July 22, 2018 @06:43AM (#17586153)
It seems pretty delusional to make conclusions when you don't even know if they really took LSD or something sold as LSD, but actually dangerous, and are missing basically all other important data other than "they took something and then became crazy", while the then in the sentence means "after that", as in time, not "because of that".
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by erikpukinskis on Friday July 27, 2018 @02:44PM (#17628178)
It’s literally guaranteed that some of them would have.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by mikec3010 on Saturday July 21, 2018 @07:46PM (#17584476)
So if someone takes any medication and strokes out, has an MI, or stops breathing, we can't blame the drug because maybe that was going to happen anyway?
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by firethief on Saturday July 21, 2018 @11:49PM (#17585189)
Usually, yes. That's why we haven't banned Tylenol.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by windows_tips on Saturday July 21, 2018 @11:00PM (#17585070)
>The drug is illegal,

Only in certain contexts (ie. some instances of interstate commerce).

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by Pica_soO on Saturday July 21, 2018 @02:30PM (#17583140)
I agree, it only should be available to those, who are already in danger by pre-existing conditions like chronic depression or other similar serious mental conditions.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by travmatt on Saturday July 21, 2018 @01:49PM (#17582903)
That’s the point - there are other, slower, safer means to effect positive change on your mind that don’t run the risk of fucking up your brain from some random effect you had no way of predicting. The point is that it’s effects are powerful, which is why there is finally a revival into what exactly is happening.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by lightcatcher on Saturday July 21, 2018 @02:20PM (#17583078)
This isn't a useful distinction unless you can reliably identify the flaw before the negative impact of LSD. Without a detection mechanism, this is as actionable as "LSD does bad things to some people"
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by cageface on Saturday July 21, 2018 @01:14PM (#17582723)
It probably did but that flaw wasn't obvious at all beforehand. He was a bit eccentric but also a really bright and funny guy with a lot of friends and a very dedicated student.
Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by api on Saturday July 21, 2018 @01:20PM (#17582742)
I've seen this too but not from just one trip. I've seen heavy users kind of never come back.

I suspect your friend had latent psychotic tendencies. Would be interesting to look at family history.

These are powerful drugs that seem capable of both helping and doing harm. They should definitely be used with care, studied, and not abused.

Of course what the war on drugs did was to ban the scientific study of these things and push them exclusively onto the street where they did get abused.

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by techbio on Saturday July 21, 2018 @02:22PM (#17583084)
The existence of undiagnosed disorders and the potential presence of effective coping skills/supportive stable home environment/unstressed personality/late-onset symptoms would preclude reliance on prior indicators of determining fitness for a given psychedelic.

Family histories are not always clearly diagnosed. That hypothetical uncle you've never met and no one talks about? Unknown mental health flag.

Self-diagnosis of a mental/emotional state that calls for drug-taking is itself a clue that not all is so normal in the individual's mind--or is it something wrong in the world the person wants to relate to better? Who can know but the one supposedly experiencing an unnaccepted state? Observing/deciding/dosing by the selfsame suffering/diagnosing/tripping individual sounds risky, because if the downside is a long future of some degree of insanity, it is only a variety of Russian Roulette.

To allow scientific studies, fund them, possibly create therapies is to also conquer the stigmas involved in substantial ways and that process is tectonically, multi-generationally slow (or impossible).

Re:Psychedelics Promote Structural and Functional Neural Pla... by ada1981 on Saturday July 21, 2018 @02:56PM (#17583258)
What was the set and setting for your friend?

What was going on in his life at the time?

Who was with him and how did they work with his “freak out”?

It sounds like he lacked the set, setting and support to integrate that experience in a healthy way.