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Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by pmoriarty on Friday July 20, 2018 @04:56PM (#17578850)
There was a lot of hoopla in the media over easily hackable voting machines before and shortly after the Bush vs Kerry Presidential election. Afterwards, the Democrats screamed fraud and vowed to get rid of those easily hackable voting machines. Then they apparently forgot all about it and moved on. The machines are still there. The vulnerabilities are still there. The results of any election that they play a role in is suspect.

Then Trump vs Clinton came around, and it seems no one remembered that the easily hackable voting machines were even there. But they were. What role did they play in the election? Without a paper trail, we may never know.

Apart from the travesty that is the easily hackable electronic voting machine, there are also electronic vote counting machines. In my own district, we voted on paper ballots which where then directly placed in to electronic vote counting machines. If those are hacked they can give out any vote total the hacker wants, perhaps just outside the margin required for a manual recount.

Any election where either electronic voting machines or electronic vote counting machines were used should not be trusted. When there's no paper trail, it's even worse, but even where there is the laws might not allow a hand recount.

The use of either of these types of machines might explain why exit poll numbers and predictions have been so wildly off the mark in recent years.

Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by noobermin on Friday July 20, 2018 @05:08PM (#17578956)
Exit poll numbers weren't off. Predictions were only off because people ignored the actual polls and inserted their own biases into the interpretation of said polls, and thought popular vote == winning.
Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by monocasa on Friday July 20, 2018 @05:42PM (#17579212)
That's my understanding too, that despite being heavily data driven, the Clinton campaign (and most of the polling agencies as well since they were using the same techniques) didn't have anywhere near a correct model for a "likely voter". That biased the results of their total model heavily towards Clinton.
Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by pmyteh on Friday July 20, 2018 @06:26PM (#17579492)
It's very hard to come up with reliable likely voter models, not least because there are significant changes in people who vote every time. The opinion polls in the 2017 British general election were out, for example, because in the event unusual numbers of unlikely voters came out to vote Labour. Things were obviously going to be different that time (Labour had elected a deeply unlikey leader and repositioned itself) but no-one had any solid evidence how turnout patterns would change, or to what degree.

So yes, inaccurate likely voter modeling is a serious problem. But it's really hard if things are changing, politically.

Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by monocasa on Friday July 20, 2018 @07:41PM (#17579865)
Oh absolutely, it's a nearly impossible task. You can't even trust current polls asking people if they're likely to vote.
Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by luke0016 on Friday July 20, 2018 @06:40PM (#17579582)
If we had paper trails, this claim could be even more confidently asserted.
Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by monocasa on Friday July 20, 2018 @07:11PM (#17579738)
Well, hopefully paper trails don't have any identifiable information connected to the votes or else you end up with vote buying and coercion attacks.
Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by luke0016 on Friday July 20, 2018 @10:09PM (#17580367)
Of course not. I go in, I vote, the vote is recorded electronically, and a piece of paper that only indicates who was voted for is spit out. No personally identifiable information.

It's not like this is hard. We were doing paper secret ballots for literally centuries before electronic voting machines came along.

Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by propman on Friday July 20, 2018 @11:33PM (#17580562)
There was a poll that normalized the data by assuming 98% of African Americans were in favor of Clinton based on a minuscule sample size heavily dependent on African American women which didn’t raise a red flag for me BUT that poll assumed that Black voters would come out with a greater turnout than for Obama which I thought was ridiculously untrue. Now this was a public poll and not their internals, but after reading that I placed some friendly wagers that trump would win certain states (he won 3/4 I predicted).

At the time I thought Clinton was a superior candidate to Trump, so I did message a Clinton campaign member my concerns and was ignored. I posted on a Clinton forum and got blocked for being a right wing troll and was told they were ahead in Arizona and competitive in Texas, so there’s no way they need to be concerned about the states I mentioned. The group think was absurd. No dissent allowed.

I bought Chasing Hillary by a NYTimes reporter and that absurd elitism and overconfidence and refusal to hear any real dissent was a recurring theme in that book. (I wouldn’t reccomend it, but the biggest lesson I learned there was the Clinton campaign played everything so safe. A dozen reviewers checking every joke, every line, every answer so every comment Hillary spoke became devoid of substance and too safe and many good plays were shot down if any of a handful of people disagreed with them).

Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by rdtsc on Friday July 20, 2018 @06:32PM (#17579536)
> Then Trump vs Clinton came around, and it seems no one remembered that the easily hackable voting machines were even there.

Some people remembered and that was part of the reason many supported Stein's (Green Party candidate's) recounting effort. Unreliability and ability to hack those machines played a a significant role in the level of donations received and all the support.

> Any election where either electronic voting machines or electronic vote counting machines were used should not be trusted.

I mostly agree. At least it would remove the doubt and uncertainty and people can focus on other issues. So I would say have paper ballots, manual counting in addition to electronic, and add voter IDs on top of it. Voter IDs, if anything, just because it gets brought up every time, so fine, give everyone some of those. India somehow managed to do it but it ends being this contentious issue in this country which I don't quite understand.

> The use of either of these types of machines might explain why exit poll numbers and predictions have been so wildly off the mark in recent years.

Exactly. Even if there was no fraud, say that's the best case scenario. There were recounting efforts, allegations of every type, poll result discrepancies, articles, blogs, endless discussions on it. Just add up all the time, money and energy spent. It's just not worth it.

Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by DonHopkins on Friday July 20, 2018 @06:24PM (#17579480)
Even a Chimpanzee can hack a voting machine!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4-wQhtRiP8

>Chimp Hacks Diebold GEMS tabulator

>Black Box Voting produced this film in Sept. 2004, teaching Baxter the chimp to delete entries in the Diebold audit log (without even a password). Yet in 2008, over 1,000 locations still used this tamper-friendly system. This is the real Diebold GEMS system, and a real Los Angeles vote database, which we ourselves altered as well to introduce "Dr. Evil." Baxter then deleted the Dr. Evil entries, to remove all traces of evidence that would show tampering of the Los Angeles election. You can download your own version of GEMS at BlackBoxVoting.org to try this yourself.

https://medium.com/@donhopkins/dumbold-voting-machine-for-th...

>Dumbold Voting Machine for The Sims 1

>At first look, it appears to be a fully functional voting machine. But it actually has a lot of infuriating bugs, hidden features, gaping security holes and malicious easter eggs that simulate problems with real voting machines, and it shows illustrated pop-ups to educate players about the real-world problems and issues of electronic voting.

Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by specialist on Friday July 20, 2018 @11:54PM (#17580612)
FYI, Voter Action (now defunct) proved in a court of law that Kerry won New Mexico.

Among many other problems, their touchscreen voting machines didn't count spanish language ballots.

Part of the settlement was NM had to junk all their new machines and go back to opscans.

Given the circumstantial evidence and coverups, it's entirely reasonable to assume that election integrity problems were widespread. But we'll never know, because the evidence was destroyed, often illegally (eg despite federal injunctions).

As for why non-Republicans don't talk about this: Because it's a trap. Priming the public with the idea makes it easier for someone else to come along and seize the initiative, despite any reality. And few non-Republicans know how to wield the bully pulpit.

Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by lcampbell on Saturday July 21, 2018 @12:22AM (#17580672)
This sounded interesting and I had trouble looking up the details. For others, the Voter Action site is available on archive.org[1] and from there the court deposition for the Lopategui v. Vigil-Giron case and several other documents are available.

Searching for the aforementioned case turned up another case wherein Vigil-Giron (the NM secretary of state at the time?) and several others were indited for additional shenanigans[2].

--

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20140831100709/http://voteractio...

[2] https://www.abqjournal.com/14230/updated-ex-secretary-of-sta...

Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by specialist on Saturday July 21, 2018 @05:03AM (#17581343)
Thanks.

Wow, I didn’t know about [2]. Unbelievable. But not surprising I guess. I was friends with the Voter Action people. Their inside baseball version of the story was depressing.

Re:A used voting machine from the 2016 election by makomk on Sunday July 22, 2018 @07:37AM (#17586265)
It's not actually true that no-one remembered the easily hackable voting machines were there. Trump dredged it up and made a lot of noise about it, so naturally all the good Resistance folks on social media insisted that this was a Trumpian lie and it was actually impossible. Wired even ran an article claiming it would require some ludicrously absurd conspiracy to rig the election: https://www.wired.com/2016/10/wireds-totally-legit-guide-rig... Like, this wasn't just ignored, people were actively fighting against the idea that it was true for partisan reasons.

This only changed once Trump won.