News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by tptacek on Monday October 04, 2010 @02:27PM (#1756695)
This company is stupid x2 for wading into this: first, because it's easy to claim that refusing a dark-skinned candidate a job over dreads is a proxy for racial discrimination, and second because hair length is a genuine issue for major world religions, like Sikhs. Both are called out specifically by the Civil Rights Act.

We work in some of the most button-down corporate environments imaginable with people who wear dreads. It will not be hard for Woodson's lawyers to find examples of other companies dealing with this issue.

It's hard to even see a controversy here. Sorry, you don't get to not hire someone because they wear dreads.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by yummyfajitas on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:15PM (#1756906)
I think you are probably right, but I believe there is an exception for safety issues. For example, a machine shop can require you to get a crew cut and wear tight clothing regardless of your religion. Religious tolerance doesn't mean you have the right to wrap your dreads around a lathe.

That said, I don't think moving furniture falls into that category.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by tptacek on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:22PM (#1756946)
Machine shops everywhere already have safety practices for long hair: you tie your hair, wear it up, and cover it with a helmet.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by yummyfajitas on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:45PM (#1757048)
You may be right about that particular safety procedure. I work behind a desk so I won't comment on how to stay safe around machinery.

But I stand by my statement that safety does overrule religion - I thought of that particular example because it is analogous to a case I read about a while back where a Muslim woman was not permitted to work in a machine shop due to her loose clothing. I'll see if I can dig it up. Similarly, I don't think a Sikh MRI operator could carry a Kirpan.

[edit: My bad, it was a print shop, not a machine shop. http://www.judicialview.com/Court-Cases/Employment/Judgment-... ]

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by kaptainlange on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:36PM (#1757016)
Am I the only one who thinks this situation is a good example where discrimination laws are not serving their intended purpose?

A company should be able to set a policy regarding grooming and/or dress.

The part that I find shittiest about this situation is that the company would have been better just rejecting him outright. Instead they said they would hire him if he agreed to cut his hair to their wishes. Now there's a lawsuit.

How is that beneficial for anyone? Why can't two individuals have an honest negotiation about what it is they want from each other?

> Sorry, you don't get to not hire someone because they wear dreads.

Why not? Why is that something you shouldn't be able to do with your own business.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by tptacek on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:44PM (#1757047)
Because having long hair in no way affects a candidate's ability to do this (or virtually any) job, and just the notion that dreadlocks project an unprofessional image is itself a form of discrimination: it's companies using job openings to subtly but overtly make it that much harder to practice a particular religion. Unlike you, I see this as a great example of Civil Rights law having its intended effect.

If you believe that businesses should simply be allowed to set their own standards, then maybe they should be allowed to require men to be clean-shaven; maybe they should be allowed to require women to wear skirts; maybe they should be allowed to prefer men for certain positions (security guards? shift supervisors?).

You can construct a business justification for nearly any form of discrimination, and, of course, you can construct a personal freedom justification for all discrimination.

Fortunately or not, this has been a settled issue in the US since 1964. If you have a policy that would prevent a Sikh from working for you (which this policy would), you're going to lose in court.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by kaptainlange on Monday October 04, 2010 @04:13PM (#1757183)
The best course of action for this company would have been to just say no we're not going to hire you.

How is that beneficial for the employer or the potential employee?

> Because having long hair in no way affects a candidate's ability to do this (or virtually any) job

But it does affect how the company is perceived, and that's not a result of the company but the people who use it. I don't have a problem with dreadlocks, but I honestly understand why someone might be a little weary of hiring someone to come into their home and move all their stuff if they look radically different to them.

> then maybe they should be allowed to require men to be clean-shaven;

Yes.

> maybe they should be allowed to require women to wear skirts;

Yes. You should be able to define the uniform you wish your employees to wear.

> maybe they should be allowed to prefer men for certain positions

Yes. You should also be allowed to prefer women for certain positions.

Here's what I don't get.

One, you don't have to be hired. You're not entitled to every job you apply for. You're also not entitled to the job you have.

Two, certain requirements, such as shaving or your hair style are things that you can change. Perhaps that conflicts with your religion, but that's something you have to deal with. That's your decision. You can still be a Rastafarian and not have dreadlocks, be Muslim and not wear a hijab, and be a Christian and work on Sunday. At what point do you stop accommodating irrationally held religious beliefs and start treating people as if they are adults responsible for their own decisions?

Three, employers are responsible for who they hire. If they don't feel comfortable having that person represent their company, they should be able to not hire them. These laws remove some of that responsibility, but still place all the blame for the actions of that individual with the company.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by gaius on Monday October 04, 2010 @04:33PM (#1757287)
this has been a settled issue in the US since 1964

Here's a case since then about hair length in the workplace:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=searc...

tl;dr: your employer does have the legal right to tell you to cut your hair.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by tptacek on Monday October 04, 2010 @04:40PM (#1757310)
tl;dr: this case was based on a claim of sex discrimination, not of race or religion.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by gaius on Monday October 04, 2010 @04:52PM (#1757380)
So we're agreed that some sorts of discrimination, specifically regarding the cutting of hair at an employer's request, are in fact legal; now it's merely a matter of specifics.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by tptacek on Monday October 04, 2010 @04:54PM (#1757392)
The specifics are race, color, sex, religion, or national origin. I'm not making them up.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by gaius on Monday October 04, 2010 @05:02PM (#1757418)
OK, but we have evidence that an employer can tell you to cut your hair despite it being one of your five types of discrimination. So what it is about the other four that means you can't?

(Genuinely curious, I'm English and this is American law).

Also how are race and colour legally different? Did you mean to say sex (as in gender) and sexuality (as in, gay or not)?

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by tptacek on Monday October 04, 2010 @05:06PM (#1757434)
The law isn't against hair discrimination!

This may be a fun thing to dicker about on a message board thread, but the reality is that even for Blockbuster, who won their suit, it was not fun to attempt to enforce this norm; a lawsuit that made it all the way to a Federal appeals court no doubt cost them many millions of dollars.

And for what? Rasta dreadlock guy would almost certainly cost them another several million dollars for his long hair, and since his claim is based on an actual established religious practice, he'd also probably win. This was a dumb move on Blockbuster's part.

I don't know what the deal is in England, but any competent hiring manager in the US --- any competent one at all --- should be expected to know that they can't decline a candidate because they wear dreads. Since an HR people who does something as dumb as informing a candidate that they've been rejected over their dreads is likely putting you at immediate risk of a 5-6 figure loss, you'd be well within your rights to fire them immediately.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by gaius on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:06PM (#1756868)
It's not as simple as that. For example, religious freedom laws don't allow Rastas to smoke ganja, nor Sikhs to carry their swords onto planes.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by run4yourlives on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:09PM (#1756880)
Actually, Sikhs can carry the Kirpan in most public places in both Canada and the US. You are correct though that an aircraft is not one of these places.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by cryptoz on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:08PM (#1756873)
Smoking plants and carrying weapons represent health and safety concerns for the people surrounding them. Dreadlocks do not. There's a huge difference. Don't even pretend that carrying a weapon is similar to having a certain hair style.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by VladRussian on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:27PM (#1756975)
>Smoking plants and carrying weapons represent health and safety concerns for the people surrounding them.

you do believe that the government's caring about your health is the reason why ganja is outlawed?

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by tptacek on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:30PM (#1756990)
I hope I speak for all of us when I say that this is not a discussion we can productively have on HN.

The "dreads" issue is at least marginally interesting to HN, if only to send loud-and-clear the message of "DON'T MENTION SOMEONE'S HAIR AS A HIRING CRITERIA".

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by riffic on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:33PM (#1757000)
yeah it went so well the last time it happened; keep ridiculing. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1641042
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by gaius on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:35PM (#1757008)
The article says it's for reasons of hygiene, coming into close contact with people.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by tptacek on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:47PM (#1757052)
In other words, "people who practice Rastafarianism are usually not hygienic; just look at their hair". You can see how this isn't going to play well for them in court.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by gaius on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:54PM (#1757091)
I've many friends with dreads and with the best will in the world, something you wash every few months if that, doesn't meet normally accepted standards of hygiene. That's true of whites with dreads as well, so it's not racist.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by tptacek on Monday October 04, 2010 @04:01PM (#1757127)
Having a standard that says "employee hair must be clean, neatly arranged, and safe for physical work" would probably have been fine. That's not what happened here. This candidate offered to conceal his hair and was told he had to cut it.

I have friends and professional colleagues with dreads and will tell you that none of them are unhygienic. Is it harder for them to keep their hair clean than it is for me? I don't know, because that's none of my business.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by gaius on Monday October 04, 2010 @04:30PM (#1757270)
If you were managing, say, a catering business, then it would be your job to know.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by tptacek on Monday October 04, 2010 @04:35PM (#1757294)
If you were managing, say, a high-end restaurant kitchen, you might end up on ICA and judging Top Chef despite your dreads:

http://www.worldhum.com/travel-blog/item/interview-govind-ar...

You're just not going to get anywhere with this argument. There's nothing inherently wrong with dreadlocks.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by spot on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:15PM (#1756908)