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Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by typon on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @08:39AM (#17557779)
Are there car dealers trying to offer a la carte car + entertainment system packages but are being shut down by BMW?
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by endorphone on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @08:43AM (#17557807)
Of course there aren't because BMW absolutely squashed the possibility of that at the outset. But Google, apparently, deserves a $5B fine because they made a mistake of powering AOSP phones, the Amazon products, countless variations in China, set top boxes, etc.

It is incredible seeing Google being seriously attacked on here for have an open source path as well. I feel like this is some sort of alternative universe.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by dtech on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @09:27AM (#17558168)
> But Google, apparently, deserves a $5B fine because they made a mistake of powering AOSP phones

This is incredibly (deliberately?) misrepresentative. They are being punished for having a monopoly and (ab)using that. If Apple/iPhone had an 80% market share in EU the commission would be gunning for them instead, e.g. because of their closed ecosystem preventing competition.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by briandear on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:00AM (#17559020)
Why isn’t the EU gunning for Airbus, Safran and Arianespace? Airbus and Safran had a joint venture to build rockets, then the EU approved the sale of Arianespace to Airbus for a tiny $166 million. Now in space vehicles and launches, Airbus practically owns all of it in Europe. It effectively shuts out competing rocket makers. If you buy an Airbus rocket, you are forced to hire their Arianespace wholy owned subsidiary to launch it.

And this deal was approved by the EU and it specifically grants a monopoly to Airbus for European rocket manufacturing and launch.

The point is that the EU doesn’t care that much about monopolies— they care that much about American tech monopolies. It’s economic populism. I am not saying anything about the merits of the Android case, only pointing out that the EU doesn’t pursue EU companies with as much vigor. €5 billion is a significant payday for the EU — especially when that money comes from an American company.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by typon on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @08:50AM (#17557866)
If Google had gone the open source route out of the goodness of their hearts, you'd have an argument. Google went the open source route to bootstrap on top of a well known operating system (Linux), as well as to accelerate adoption and catch up to Apple as fast as they could. Then once they got market dominance, they abused their position to stifle competition.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by miracle2k on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @09:16AM (#17558059)
Are you suggesting that to interpret the law correctly here, a court has to judge Google's motivation of releasing the Android code as Open Source?

Further, if Apple were to decide, tomorrow, to release iOS as open source, would they also be in violation of the law (possibly depending on their motivation?)

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @09:18AM (#17558077)
> Are you suggesting that to interpret the law correctly here, a court has to judge Google's motivation of releasing the Android code as Open Source?

The law often hinges on intent along with action, that's hardly novel.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by dlp211 on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @09:13AM (#17558039)
There is nothing that you said that requires Android to be open source.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by typon on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @09:57AM (#17558388)
I think Android's popularity and extremely quick adoption owes itself to the fact that it's open source.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:00AM (#17559019)
It owes to being free not open source. OEMs really only had three choices. Create their own OS (horrible choice), use Windows Mobile or use Android. The deciding factor was free. Phone manufacturers no more cared about open source than Windows anufacturers.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by arminiusreturns on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @10:43AM (#17558848)
Are you just ignoring the part where they use linux which has a gplv2 license?
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ummonk on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:29AM (#17559287)
It is incredible seeing Google being seriously attacked on here for have an open source path as well. I feel like this is some sort of alternative universe.

Exactly. The takeaway from this seems to be to not open up your system a little bit, because then you'll need to go all the way. Whereas e.g. Apple, which built a completely closed phone system from the start, doesn't get any trouble (even when it dominated the smartphone market). Really backwards ruling. And I say this as someone who happily switched to an iPhone to escape Google's data collection.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by Khaine on Thursday July 19, 2018 @05:41AM (#17564909)
No its not. There are a lot of Americans being obtusely dense on this. There is nothing wrong with open source. There is nothing wrong with opening the source of a product.

"Google has used Android as a vehicle to cement the dominance of its search engine. These practices have denied rivals the chance to innovate and compete on the merits. They have denied European consumers the benefits of effective competition in the important mobile sphere," Ms Vestager said.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by bjpbakker on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @09:42AM (#17558269)
> Google being seriously attacked on here for have an open source path as well

It's not because Google has open sourced Android (which they _had_ to because of the GPL used by Linux). The fine is for protecting their own marker by blocking others from using that open source software.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by trasz on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @09:54AM (#17558355)
Minor nit: Google didn't have to Open Source the whole Android because of Linux; Linux is just one of many components, and Linux' license doesn't apply to the rest of the software there.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by LamaOfRuin on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @10:43AM (#17558849)
This is always an interesting problem of definition and separation. If all the things google claims are absolutely essential and inseparable as part of 'Android' the license could well be interpreted as requiring them to open source all of it. If, on the other hand, these are all separate pieces of software and not totally dependent to deliver the end 'experience' then that contradicts some of Google's legal arguments.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by trasz on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @01:15PM (#17560200)
Has Google actually claimed the kernel is "essential and inseparable", or did they just do that wrt the closed-source Google apps, though?
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by LamaOfRuin on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @01:26PM (#17560293)
I don't consider that part up to Google's discretion. It simply doesn't function without the kernel. The question is whether the Google apps are also essential and inseparable which would tie them to the kernel as part of a derivative work (according to this interpretation which may or may not hold up in court).
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by Jach on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @05:29PM (#17562234)
It won't function without a kernel, but will it not function without the Linux kernel? Since the Solaris days with lxrun all the way through present time with Windows 10's linux subsystem and SmartOS's lx-branded zones, you could run Linux binaries (and entire distros) on a system without the Linux kernel, with various amounts of support/breakage. Still, no GPL2 kernel needed.

I suspect that when a lawyer uses "essential and inseparable" they do not mean the same thing a technologist would mean. The GPL itself doesn't use that language, and anyway it's trivial to argue that a full OS distro isn't "based on" (the language of the GPL) the kernel itself.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by pertymcpert on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:54AM (#17559487)
The GPL issue is completely separate. The law regarding GPL and where is applies vs LGPL is well understood.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by trasz on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @01:13PM (#17560184)
Not really, no. There's the FSF interpretation on one hand, but on the other there are companies like VMWare which happily put binary blobs into the Linux kernel and don't consider it a "derived work".
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:52PM (#17563833)
There are disagreements, but let's put it this way: If even the FSF would call it okay, then it's almost certainly okay. And the FSF will tell you that the kernel license doesn't infect user space.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by pas on Thursday July 19, 2018 @06:56AM (#17565201)
What? I can't open a car dealership and sell BMWs and put custom audio equipment into them? (And to take the analogy further, what if I buy BMWs from a different dealership, not from BMW? Because with software that's basically zero-cost.)
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @10:35AM (#17558774)
Car manufacturers have been doing custom after market upgrades for cars for years - including the audio system.