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Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by repolfx on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @05:53AM (#17556759)
That first claim is clearly wrong though.

Firstly, Android doesn't have a monopoly. Apple does fine in Europe and their devices can be bought everywhere.

Secondly, there are device makers that didn't cut a deal with Google, notably the Amazon phones and tablets. They weren't that popular with consumers but that's not Google's fault: it just means consumers highly value the additional services Google provides.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by hrktb on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:32AM (#17556999)
Sorry if it was unclear. The first issue is Google pushing the search engine on mobile devices.

For context they also push Google search to iOS devices (Apple gets huge amount of money for that), the same way as they pay firefox to have Google as their default search engine.

The issue though, is that for android phones, it's not a "let's make a deal, we will pay you to have Google Search" attitude. You can't make an android device integrated with Google Play app store without also having Google Search in the home screen and as default search engine.

What the EU is fining among others, is the business practice of forcing device makers that want to use the Play Store to also bundle the other service (Search).

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by throwawayjava on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @07:08AM (#17557214)
Which is a kind of silly decision on Google's part, because they have far and away the superior product and also the superior brand. Even if the option was given at setup, nearly everyone choosing to buy an Andriod phone would select google as the default search engine...

(I guess you could say that didn't see this coming, but the parallels with MSFT and IE are pretty hard to not see...)

The fine is going to hurt a lot more than any remedial action.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by thefounder on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @07:49AM (#17557441)
I believe you are wrong. In Russia Yandex has grown a lot after the option was given at setup.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by gandhium on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @10:17AM (#17558577)
A lot? It was about ~50% and increased by a couple of percents.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @08:24AM (#17557674)
Much of their entire dominance as a company hinges on pushing defaults, and their ability to force manufacturers to ship Google apps, on any phone sold in the EU, is a massive blow. The penalty is chump change for Google, but the remedy is what is going to hurt long term, because competitors can finally get in the game.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ge0rg on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:00AM (#17556811)
Maybe the problem with the Google deal is that it's exclusive: if you want to make one device that's Google approved and contains the "highly valued" services, you are disallowed by the compliance contract to make other Android devices that are not Google-approved.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by blub on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:16AM (#17556913)
Yep, that is a big problem. If company A has launched an official Android device, and company B goes to A and asks them to build a totally unrelated Android-based (but not Android proper) device for them, A is not allowed to do that by Google.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by repolfx on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:31AM (#17556992)
But why would company B go to company A and ask them to make a phone "for them"?

It's not hard to become a phone maker these days, judging by the sheer number of Android OEMs that are out there (hundreds, I believe). If there was huge untapped demand for Android sans Google then a new company would appear, they'd download the Android code, they'd go to Shenzen and do a deal with a white label manufacturer, and they'd make such phones. Google wouldn't stop them because they'd be a company that doesn't make any other kinds of phones.

We know this is possible because there's one huge market where that's normal, China. Google's services are blocked in China anyway, so there's no point adding their app store or mapping apps. Local firms produce local versions of Android for their own market and it works fine. We also know this because Amazon tried it and they weren't sued or anything.

There are also open source spins of Android that have custom app stores like F-Droid. A new phone maker could ship those too.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by bbeonx on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:44AM (#17557076)
You're missing the forest for the trees. The example was illustrative.

In general, when you see an example that explains a complex issue you should assume that it is significantly simplified and therefore will not be realistic.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by blub on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:47AM (#17557095)
First of all, Android is not only used on phones, but also for other types of embedded devices.

It's very normal that a company B would want to go to company A, if A already have a lot of expertise in Android. For instance a POS manufacturer might want to collaborate with Sony or Samsung on an embedded device which uses Android internally (without the GApps & stuff), but Sony and Samsung are forbidden from dealing with B.

Even Amazon would be happy to outsource some Android development to e.g. Samsung but they can't.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by petecox on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @08:31AM (#17557722)
Jolla have a collaboration with Sony to get Sailfish OS running on their Xperia phones.

However, Sailfish is available only as a post market firmware.

Being a derivative work of AOSP courtesy of libhybris, it would seem Sony are prevented from factory installing Sailfish on any future Xperia device.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by r_singh on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @07:51AM (#17557446)
> Firstly Android doesn't have a monopoly.

The EU commission doesn't think so. Their press release* says that 80% of smart mobile devices in Europe, run on Android.

* http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4581_en.htm

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by gowld on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:00PM (#17559550)
So Google could solve this problem by raising the price of its OS, increasing profits and decreasing market share, and leaving a billion with no access to smartphones at all.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by redial on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @02:27PM (#17560876)
Or, by doing something that is not illegal in the EU: not forcing manufacturers to bundle Google Search if they want to include the Play Store.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by beerlord on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:14PM (#17559647)
Android is free to license. Google makes money from the Android users who then use Search, Gmail, Maps etc. since they are bundled with the phone.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by trothamel on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @10:57AM (#17558991)
Well, there's nothing all that special about the output of a political commission. And the fact that 1 in 5 devices don't run Android would seem to contradict the monopoly accusation.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by Sylos on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:06PM (#17563686)
Antitrust does not require a monopoly, it just requires enough of a market dominance that hurting the market is feasible for you, and then exploiting this position to actually hurt the market.

Basically, all you have to do, is hurt the market in noticeable ways. The sole goal of antitrust laws is keeping the market healthy. They're not fair and have almost no rules attached to them.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by rusk on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:03AM (#17556824)
> That first claim is clearly wrong though.

No it isn't. But your attempt at refutation is.

> Android doesn't have a monopoly. Apple does fine in Europe

Apple has its segment. Android is pretty much everything else. It is "dominant" in the market.

> Secondly, there are device makers that didn't cut a deal with Google

The complaint relates specifically to access to google play services.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by repolfx on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:05AM (#17556844)
But Android isn't a phone maker. It's a component that is usually customised.

Now go look at who are making phones on this base: Samsung is the most popular but it doesn't have a monopoly.

Is the EU going to fine ARM next for having a monopoly on mobile CPUs?

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by claudius on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:11AM (#17556879)
> Is the EU going to fine ARM next for having a monopoly on mobile CPUs?

Having a monopoly or being in a dominant position is not the problem. If ARM starts a pizza business and requires everyone who wants to buy mobile CPUs to also order pizzas exclusively from them, then this would be an equally-fineable abuse of a dominant market position and the EU would almost certainly step in.

As it stands, ARM doesn’t force others to buy pizzas exclusively from ARM PIZZA PLACE and hence doesn’t abuse its dominant market position in one market (mobile CPUs) to support its position in another market (pizzas).

Google, on the other hand, uses its dominant position in the "licensable mobile operating systems" market to support its position in the "internet search" and "browsers" market together with anticompetitive behaviour forcing its licensees to exclusively use the Google-approved version of Android.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by repolfx on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:16AM (#17556911)
You can use Android and make a phone that searches Bing and uses your own app store. Look at how Amazon did it.

Most phone makers don't because customers prefer the Google services, but that's not Google's fault. They have provided OEMs with options - options they didn't need to give anyone, apparently, given that non-licensable operating systems like iOS aren't being whacked the same way.

The most Google can do is give away their OS as open source and let people do what they want with it. If they then sell a bundle of extra proprietary stuff on top, stuff that customers want, that can't possibly be more problematic than making everything proprietary.

After all, Apple doesn't even let third party devs from the app store take over the default mapping app: map links always open in Apple Maps regardless of user preference. For the longest time they wouldn't even let apps that competed with their own be developed at all. On Android you can replace the dialer and even the home screen.

I do understand why people are defending the EU here: they like its ideology and vision of the future. But trying to claim Android is some sort of market abuse when Apple's own approach apparently isn't just defies basic logic.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by cmsj on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:44AM (#17557075)
I understand that you can look at this in a way that makes it seem like Apple's tight control over iOS is equivalent to Google's tight control over Android, but there are some key differences:

a) Android has market share dominances (likely around 75% in Europe in 2018)

b) iOS is not made available for other companies to use

You could make arguments that iOS behaves unfairly to third party developers and end users, and there are some decent arguments to be made there, but none of them are relevant to antitrust law because a) means there is no market dominance to abuse with, and b) means there are no competitors to be abused.

---

You said "Most phone makers don't [skip Google services] because customers prefer the Google services, but that's not Google's fault". I think this gets to the heart of the disconnect between your stated position, and the legal reality here (IANAL though).

If Google's services are supreme because of user choice, then Google should require no legal arm-twisting to push those services onto devices.

Instead, what has happened is that Google has over-reached with its Android services contracts (one example - if you want to use Google services on one Android phone, you can't make a second Android phone that uses your own services), and that is what the EU is tackling here.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by rusk on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:52AM (#17557130)
Fantastically lucid and cogent summary. I regret that I have but one upvote to give.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by repolfx on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @07:10AM (#17557223)
You know that Samsung has their own app store, right? By your explanation that wouldn't be possible because they also ship the Google Play store. But it is. Samsung replace many other apps too. What Google requires is that their services are available, not that others aren't.

The different stories people are telling here about why Google is "abusive" don't correlate with the realities of how Android licensing actually works.

Also since when is 75% market dominance? 75% is popular but that's still a quarter of the population successfully choosing an alternative.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by cmsj on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @08:44AM (#17557814)
Samsung phones are very often dinged in reviews because they ship a confusing mix of Samsung apps that duplicate the functionality of Google apps. I wouldn't be very surprised at all if Samsung would prefer to just ship their Calendar/whatever app, or even entire phones that only contain their apps/services, but they can't make those choices.

Regarding the 75%, please bear in mind that that is across the total market, which covers a very broad range of price points. Apple may have ~25% share, but that is skewed almost entirely to the top end of the market. In the low end of the market, Android would be nearly 100%.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by hesarenu on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:49AM (#17559440)
So what you saying "one example - if you want to use Google services on one Android phone, you can't make a second Android phone that uses your own services" is wrong then?

Does anyone know what the contracts contain?

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by cmsj on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:58PM (#17560056)
No, it's not wrong. Samsung is allowed to add its own Calendar/Calculator/whatever apps, and their own App Store, but they are not allowed to remove Google's ones without dropping every non-AOSP Google app/service from every one of their android phones.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by yani on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:25AM (#17556965)
- by requiring mobile manufacturers to pre-install Google Search and Google Chrome browser and requiring them to set Google Search as default search service on their devices, as a condition to license certain Google proprietary apps;

- by preventing manufacturers from selling smart mobile devices running on competing operating systems based on the Android open source code;

- by giving financial incentives to manufacturers and mobile network operators on condition that they exclusively pre-install Google Search on their devices.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by mattmanser on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:25AM (#17556968)
It's not that at all. It's abuse of dominance, not the dominance itself that's the problem.

They're using a dominant position in one market to push services in an unrelated market. That's anti-trust 101. And they punish suppliers who don't tow the line.

This is exactly the same as the MS anti-trust case. Swap IE for Google Web Services (Search/Maps/Chrome) and swap Android for Windows.

If ARM started forcing phone companies using their CPUs to only sell to AT&T, that's your analogy. As it is, because ARM don't force unrelated services or products on their customers, it's not analogous.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ummonk on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:51AM (#17559461)
They're using a dominant position in one market to push services in an unrelated market.

Note that for the purposes of this ruling, the relevant dominant position isn't in Android, but the Google Play Store.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by pjc50 on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:10AM (#17556872)
> Is the EU going to fine ARM next for having a monopoly on mobile CPUs?

Have ARM used their dominant position in one market to reduce competition in a different market?

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by dvfjsdhgfv on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:15AM (#17556906)
If they abuse their position e.g. by forcing device makers to sign contracts preventing them from using RISC-V etc., then yes, EU might get interested in that, too.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by rusk on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:08AM (#17556864)
> Is the EU going to fine ARM next

Maybe? Is there something about their business practices that shapes the market to their benefit? If so, and there are enough complaints then maybe not "next" but yeah.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by cmsj on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:47AM (#17557090)
ARM does not have a monopoly on mobile CPUs.

ARM do not sell any CPUs. the CPUs in mobile phones come from Qualcomm, Samsung, Apple, etc.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by pstric on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:44AM (#17557071)
> Android doesn't have a monopoly. Apple does fine in Europe and their devices can be bought everywhere.

As an independen device maker, you wouldn't be able to put iOS on your devices. Android has a huge margin over other viable alternatives.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by dlp211 on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @09:30AM (#17558186)
As an independent phone maker, if this was their concern, they should have backed one of the other dozen or so attempts at a phone OS. No one forced them to choose Android.

They also have the option to write their own OS anytime they want.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by IanCal on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:51PM (#17559986)
> Firstly, Android doesn't have a monopoly.

It does have a dominant market position though, and that's what's in the legal stuff that they're being fined under. You do not need a complete monopoly to have a dominant market position.

> Secondly, there are device makers that didn't cut a deal with Google, notably the Amazon phones and tablets. They weren't that popular with consumers but that's not Google's fault: it just means consumers highly value the additional services Google provides.

More than that though, they effectively stopped device manufactures from selling these (because of exclusivity agreements), and a lack of range isn't going to have helped amazon:

> For example, the Commission has found evidence that Google's conduct prevented a number of large manufacturers from developing and selling devices based on Amazon's Android fork called "Fire OS".

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4581_en.htm