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Re:The Shareholder Value Myth (2013) by marcosdumay on Saturday July 14, 2018 @10:39PM (#17533532)
As long as you keep wealth disparity under control, make sure people don't get stuck in poverty, correctly tax externalities, enforce honest marketing, and deal with a lot of other small details, shareholder value maximization is nearly optimal in being beneficial to the people using the system.

As a bonus, it also creates a nice incentive for saving and investing into the future. What is hard to achieve on most systems.

Re:The Shareholder Value Myth (2013) by elvinyung on Saturday July 14, 2018 @11:10PM (#17533608)
Yes, as long as...

I totally agree that checks and balances -- in the abstract, some form of all-to-all coordination between the different components of the system -- are probably the easiest way to healthcheck any system like this. Otherwise you fall into "multipolar traps" [1] where each actor, working independently and acting game-theoretically optimally, can throw the system into undesirable states.

Checks and balances should be implemented. But is this adequately true in the actually-existing implementation of the system?

[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

Re:The Shareholder Value Myth (2013) by chii on Sunday July 15, 2018 @01:29AM (#17533921)
> Otherwise you fall into "multipolar traps" [1] where each actor, working independently and acting game-theoretically optimally, can throw the system into undesirable states.

how does the natural ecosystem balance itself? I think that as long as each actor has enough degrees of freedom to exploit any loophole in any other actor, the system will self balance (by which, i mean become stable).

Re:The Shareholder Value Myth (2013) by elvinyung on Sunday July 15, 2018 @03:09AM (#17534134)
Actually, the idea that the nature is in balance seems to be discredited. It is basically either no more than a myth [1], poorly defined [2], or untrue in the traditional conceptualizations [3].

[1] https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8853.html

[2] http://www.wcbbf.org/pdf/balanceofnature/8.pdf

[3] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/096366250506302...

Re:The Shareholder Value Myth (2013) by jtolmar on Sunday July 15, 2018 @02:46AM (#17534098)
Shareholders and keeping wealth disparity under control are at odds. As long as people are able to buy investments and own the profits of those investments, those people are paid proportionate to how much money they have, making their wealth over time an exponential function, which is inherently unequal even to other exponential functions with slightly different rates of return, and even more unequal to anyone stuck making money linearly by selling their labor.

I'd love to hear a good solution for this within a market system.

Re:The Shareholder Value Myth (2013) by closeparen on Sunday July 15, 2018 @08:18PM (#17537865)
This should be easy to check: do today’s wealthy people generally owe their fortune to investing their parents’ money?

My understanding is that upper-middle-class fortunes today are attributed more to cultural norms and posh school districts than to trust funds.

Re:The Shareholder Value Myth (2013) by skookumchuck on Sunday July 15, 2018 @03:51AM (#17534261)
> I'd love to hear a good solution for this within a market system.

Your wealth won't expand forever, because we all die.

Re:The Shareholder Value Myth (2013) by elvinyung on Sunday July 15, 2018 @03:58AM (#17534277)
Wealth and power still get concentrated in families and corporations. I would argue that these are just as valid "agents" as the individual.
Re:The Shareholder Value Myth (2013) by skookumchuck on Sunday July 15, 2018 @05:47AM (#17534544)
Families tend to dissipate wealth. The Rockefellers have long since dropped away in wealth, for example. So have the Kennedys.

Corporations are owned by shareholders, who die and pass their wealth on to the government, family, and various charities.

Re:The Shareholder Value Myth (2013) by bendbro on Sunday July 15, 2018 @03:39AM (#17534214)
For a good solution within a market system: kill everyone but myself and a small harem. Now there is a perfect market of one and all resources are optimally directed to me
Re:The Shareholder Value Myth (2013) by jopsen on Sunday July 15, 2018 @03:58AM (#17534278)
Lol, I would wager that shareholder value maximization is far from "optimal"!

In the face of poor human judgement it might be one of the more robust resource allocation schemes available to us. But optimality should never be claimed without proof.