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Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by Spivak on Friday July 13, 2018 @09:56AM (#17522998)
The rules are a bit crazy but they're not born out of malice -- they basically exist to control negative externalities and protect the property values of the neighborhood.

It's a very real fear that one of your neighbors will drive people away from your neighborhood, tank property values, and suddenly you have 20 families underwater on their mortgage. These rules are kinda dumb and often go way far because HoA members get a little drunk with power but they're essential for mobility in suburbia.

Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by rayiner on Friday July 13, 2018 @11:00AM (#17523460)
Many of the rules were in fact created out of racial animosity, as a way to deal with the fact that explicit discrimination in housing was made illegal. (You can tell this is true because Euclidian zoning arose long after industrialization. The common law of nuisance handled the "metal smelter next to the elementary school" negative externality situation just fine. What it didn't handle was keeping black people out of white neighborhoods.) That they may now have vitality beyond their initial racist origins is a different assertion.
Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by gascan on Friday July 13, 2018 @11:09AM (#17523558)
The common law of nuisance handled the negative externality situation just fine

Isn't specific standards of property care, basically a more formal codification of nuisance law? Subjective laws being a pain to apply consistently, I was under the impression we frequently did this- some objective rule is established under the rule of an existing subjective rule, to improve enforcement & fairness.

Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by rayiner on Friday July 13, 2018 @11:14AM (#17523613)
No, because for nuisance law you have to prove that failing to meet some standard is in fact causing interference with the use and enjoyment of your own property. "I don't like tall grass it looks ugly" is not a cognizable claim under nuisance law. Nor is "the tall grass might cause a rodent or insect problem that affects my property.* Under nuisance law you have to prove that actual harm exists, not merely the theoretical possibility.
Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by logfromblammo on Friday July 13, 2018 @11:37AM (#17523827)
I have literally seen in person the claim that grass tall enough for seedheads exacerbates grass pollen allergies. This was in a small town surrounded by farmland with some of the most fertile soil in the world. A person with grass pollen allergies would have to be a fool of the highest caliber to blame them on a neighbor's unmowed lawn rather than the wind blowing in from the sod farm, or the hay farm, or the wheat farm. Sometimes, I had to mow twice a week to keep the grass at a reasonable height. If I had a grass pollen allergy, I think maybe I could have been better off moving to Phoenix than becoming a lawn-height snitch--or as a UK person might put it, a grass grass.
Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by your-nanny on Friday July 13, 2018 @12:30PM (#17524371)
excessive mowing, and perfectly manicured monocultured lawns are of negative ecological value. I think I ought to have grounds for complaint.
Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by logfromblammo on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:19AM (#17541409)
As it happened, "reasonable height" was defined by town ordinance to be 12" or less. With sufficient rain, towards the end of summer, the grass could grow 2-3" per day.

I never tried to stop other plants from growing. The grass kept itself a monoculture through sheer density. I have never seen its like since I moved away.

Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by kodablah on Friday July 13, 2018 @02:33PM (#17525525)
From the article: "Japan zones limit the “maximum nuisance" in a zone, and allow for any development below that threshold (e.g. a factory can’t be built in a residential neighborhood but housing can be built in a light industrial zone)."

So, by this understanding, the author isn't completely correct and that if the factory is not a nuisance it can be built in a residential neighborhood and it has to be proven that the factory causes harm?

Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by gascan on Friday July 13, 2018 @12:14PM (#17524207)
Consider BAC. Technically, you're just not allowed to drive impaired. And different people function better or worse at the same BAC. But we have adopted a de-facto standard of 0.08%. The police don't prove in fact you were too impaired to drive, and posed a hazard to someone else. They just lock you up.
Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by Spooky23 on Friday July 13, 2018 @12:40PM (#17524457)
No, because your failure to maintain damages others.

I recently had to a file a code complaint because a landlord neighbor refuses to maintain his backyard, and out of control vegetation has damaged the fence, created a flood problem and is causing other nuisances.

Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by humanrebar on Friday July 13, 2018 @10:10AM (#17523097)
Family homes should have stopped being investment vehicles a long time ago.

If we want affordable housing, housing costs must necessarily fall behind inflation, which is the thing brown lawn regulations are trying to prevent.

I'm not saying brown lawns are the way to lower housing prices, but the whole point rests on the value judgement that expensive housing is better.

Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by conductr on Friday July 13, 2018 @11:01AM (#17523476)
> If we want affordable housing...

There is no “we”. Non home owners want affordable housing. Home owners want appreciation and have the power to make brown lawn regulations a reality.

Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by davidw on Friday July 13, 2018 @10:56AM (#17523429)
At least it's brown lawns people don't want in their neighborhoods these days.
Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by monocasa on Friday July 13, 2018 @11:00AM (#17523461)
It's still both.
Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by stronglikedan on Friday July 13, 2018 @12:24PM (#17524319)
It's still both everywhere, but not as much anywhere as some would like to believe. It's better now than it ever was, and as long as it keeps moving in that direction that's a good thing.
Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by monocasa on Friday July 13, 2018 @12:52PM (#17524570)
I mean, schools are more segregated now then they were 40 years ago. So no, it's not better than it ever was, it's just more quiet.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2013/08/...

Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by stronglikedan on Friday July 13, 2018 @01:51PM (#17525091)
That's just one data point in one area, and doesn't necessarily reflect racism. My general statement is still accurate - racism has been and still is on the decline.
Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by logfromblammo on Friday July 13, 2018 @11:27AM (#17523712)
Property values derive mostly from:

  1. Location
  2. Location
  3. Location
  4. Fads and marketing
When I shop for a home, counting the dandelions and measuring the grass height on the neighbors' lawns is the least of my concerns. These rules are 1% to do with protecting property values, and 99% to do with control freaks enforcing their prejudices and their version of order on other people.

They are not born of malice; they are born of fear.

The rules of the nearest HOA explicitly ban vehicles on blocks in the front yard. As though anybody around here would actually do that.

They go to the neighborhood with the worst property values, and they note, cargo-cult style, all of its salient features. Then they write up their rules, banning all of those features in their neighborhood. In this manner, they reason, their neighborhood will never have the worst property values in town. In reality, their neighborhood will never have the lowest property values in town because the commute to the major employers is twenty minutes, there are four grocery stores and two pharmacies within a ten minute drive, and all the houses are single-family with at least 2 bedrooms and 1500 ft^2 of finished floor area.

HOAs would mandate granite countertops and stainless steel appliances if they could come up with a decent rationale for it.

Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by Shivetya on Friday July 13, 2018 @10:18AM (#17523155)
they may not be out of malice but you get little power tripping potentates enough to make us question the rules and how they are applied. While many bemoan HOA rules you can just have problems with cities that just increase revenues by fines [1]. For the most part I think just as many states have limits on how much of a budget in a city/county can come from traffic violations that such limits needs to be applied to all fines. these fines tend to hit the poorest the hardest and there is no remedy for them

plus much of zoning still serves to discriminate against "undesirables" but now is masked behind feel good terms related to environment, pollution, quality of life, and historical. politicians and groups simply got the same results but learned how to dodge the courts and sway public opinion

[1] https://reason.com/blog/2018/05/24/georgia-town-brags-about-...

Re:North American vs. Japanese zoning by ghaff on Friday July 13, 2018 @10:43AM (#17523319)
>These rules are kinda dumb and often go way far because HoA members get a little drunk with power

I'm sure that's often true. And I know that I mostly give nature relatively free rein on my country property. That said, I can at least appreciate the point of view of why suburban neighbors on fairly small land plots who keep meticulously neat lawns, gardens, and homes are going to have an issue with the person whose house has peeling paint, an unmaintained lawn, and generally looks abandoned.