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Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by inputcoffee on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @03:54PM (#17509813)
You misunderstand the sense of "true" here.

The point is not that the "true" price in the sense of what it ought to be. It is the "true" price in the sense of what the market is actually paying for the service.

When people put out the number $23, they compare it with the cost of power and wonder why, if it is so much lower, it doesn't already swamp the current solution.

So the purpose of the comment is to explain that it is not a complete solution, and not reflective of the total ("true") bill.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by criddell on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @04:31PM (#17510061)
I've thought about adding solar to my home and can't see any reason why I should even consider a battery for storage. I'm in Texas and so I get plenty of sun and my peak energy demand happens to coincide with that sunlight (due to HVAC).

Why should I worry about a complete solution?

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by w8rbt on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @05:27PM (#17510425)
Bob Bruninga has written and researched this a great deal. He's pretty well known and respected. He feels grid tie is the way to go for homes (no batteries). Lots of great info here:

http://www.aprs.org/off-grid-maybe.html

http://www.aprs.org/solar-now.html

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by volkl48 on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @07:50PM (#17511159)
The main reason I would consider a battery is for disaster recovery purposes. Being from the suburban NYC metro area, we've had multiple, multi-week power outages in the past decade.

We have a moderate sized portable generator, but running off that for weeks becomes a very unpleasant experience. Certainly far better than not having power, but unpleasant.

Driving 2 hours away to the nearest place we knew had unlimited fuel, turning my car into a rolling bomb on the trip back with dozens of gallons of fuel in gas cans, etc. And the endless droning of the thing running.

If those sorts of disasters are not a major concern for you, I don't think a battery makes much sense.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by maxerickson on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @07:53PM (#17511176)
Do you have natural gas available?

You can also store quite a lot of propane in a small footprint without some of the issues that come with gas or diesel.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by Tepix on Thursday July 12, 2018 @03:33AM (#17512851)
> we've had multiple, multi-week power outages in the past decade

That's a crass state, what causes these outages? Is it a investment backlog of the power grid?

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by zjaffee on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:51AM (#17515176)
Hurricanes and early in the year snow storms (trees fall down on power lines), cause these things to happen.
Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by jpitz on Thursday July 12, 2018 @07:54AM (#17513660)
Might have something to do with being in a very dense area with some very old infrastructure.
Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by gameswithgo on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @07:55PM (#17511189)
It depends on how much your electric company will pay you for excess energy production. Currently you may get a good rate, but as more people install solar panels that rate is going to get worse, as it gets more expensive to deal with all the homes with solar. So figure out what the deal is in your location, don't get a battery until you need it. I Don't know, but I realize in the future if Austin Energy doesn't pay well for excess production I will.

You can also size your panels such that you never produce excess energy but you will be leaving a lot of roof space that could be making energy to waste. A sunny winter day still makes a ton of energy.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by refulgentis on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @04:57PM (#17510224)
The sun goes down at night
Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by criddell on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @05:01PM (#17510241)
And? I'm still connected to the grid.
Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by jannyfer on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @07:25PM (#17511040)
I think you are talking about off-grid vs. grid, but the others are not. The cost of solar applies also to utility companies, and I think that’s what GP was alluding to.

The grid will switch to solar + battery if it becomes cheaper than alternatives (gas, coal, nuclear, etc.)

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by megaman22 on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @10:40PM (#17511786)
Unless battery/storage tech gets wildly better, you're still going to have to have the natural gas turbine plants that we're currently using for peak demand power to smooth out the inevitable spikes and troughs in supply from solar/wind renewables.

It's such a damned shame that so many decades of potential progress in nuclear power were stymied by misguided FUD.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by refulgentis on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @06:34PM (#17510790)
You're replying to a comment about the true cost of solar being the battery + the panels, asking why anyone would think of buying a battery.

That's why.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by petersellers on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @07:38PM (#17511100)
That still doesn't answer their question. Why does the sun going down at night matter for people who are still tied to the grid?
Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by another-one-off on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @07:56PM (#17511191)
If I move into a house with a grid connection only, I budget on power costs = cost of grid connection + grid power price.

If I move to a house with solar panels, I budget on power costs = cost of grid connection + X * grid power price + (1-X) * solar price (which is the capital cost of the panels smoothed out over their useful life).

The issue here is that I can't maneuver into a situation where my power price = solar price without sacrificing my ability to do anything after sundown without candles. Clearly, the true cost of power in a solar-enabled house is going to be higher than the cost of the solar panels.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by ThomPete on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @04:45PM (#17510142)
Because you are also a taxpayer.
Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by criddell on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @04:49PM (#17510174)
Huh? Are you talking about subsidies?
Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by ThomPete on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @06:07PM (#17510649)
Not just that, also infrastructure investments.
Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by matt4077 on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @04:24PM (#17510008)
Yet the market isn't "actually paying" for battery storage at anywhere near the amount of installed solar capacity...

Which was the point you misunderstood: dedicated storage installation are not needed at current production levels, and can be avoided even when solar's share of the energy mix grows.

Among the possibilities are "smart" appliances scheduling their demand to production peaks (dishwashers can often wait a few hours, cars might not need to charge right away). The same is true for industrial usage, where smelters, for example, have the natural capacity to store energy as heat.

A growing fleet of electric cars could also serve as distributed storage: if your car is parked for the night, it could feed energy back into the grid (partially, if you are paranoid).

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by thinkcontext on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @04:50PM (#17510178)
You don't need 1:1 storage for solar production but it is a real problem. Germany and California are both facing the problem of the solar "duck curve", that is, high solar production during the day when demand is low and high electric usage at the end of the day when people get home from work as solar production is tailing off.

More than batteries they utilize gas peaker plants, inefficient, dirty and expensive plants that can ramp up and down quickly to match demand.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by Jedd on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @05:26PM (#17510421)
> You don't need 1:1 storage for solar production...

You seem to be referring exclusively to solar photovoltaic.

Solar thermal generation has quite a different, evening-friendly, distribution curve.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by thinkcontext on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @06:09PM (#17510669)
True, though the article was talking about PV.

I haven't followed closely recently but my impression was solar thermal has not delivered as promised. Things like Ivanpah was relying on natural gas more than expected. Is this an accurate impression?

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by sjwright on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:19AM (#17512158)
> True, though the article was talking about PV.

Yet confusingly the article chose images of solar thermal. It's a bit of a worry when the journalists aren't conscious of the most basic aspects of the industry they are covering.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by Jedd on Friday July 13, 2018 @08:49AM (#17522462)
> True, though the article was talking about PV.

Perhaps, but we're better than conflating solar pvc with solar thermal - especially when we talk about large scale deployments, and even more especially when we talk about systems that incorporate Big Storage (batteries or otherwise).

Parent (to your comment) wasn't specifically PVC, parent (to them) wasn't either (more about true cost), and parent to them was bemoaning the common misunderstanding around how pricing works, rather than ethics / feasibility / ambiguity around underlying technology.

> I haven't followed closely recently but my impression was solar thermal has not delivered as promised. Things like Ivanpah was relying on natural gas more than expected. Is this an accurate impression?

My impression is that solar thermal is going to provide a much more scalable solution, especially in terms of avoiding the duck curve (or at least mitigating the impact of same). I see PVC + batteries being one of those tech combinations that works reasonably well in front of, as well as behind, the meter ... but solar thermal's definitely grid-level.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by cgdcraig on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:22AM (#17512174)
Ish, solar thermal has its own set of problems and limitations; they don't work during cloudy weather and the storing the thermal energy is tricky because you need a lot of high quality thermal mass
Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by the8472 on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @05:22PM (#17510387)
> Dirty

By coal standards?

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by crdoconnor on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @04:41PM (#17510117)
>When people put out the number $23, they compare it with the cost of power and wonder why, if it is so much lower, it doesn't already swamp the current solution.

It is swamping the current solution - it just takes a while for new plants to be built and old plants to go offline.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by sunstone on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @05:00PM (#17510237)
However the amount of storage (battery or otherwise) for a network of renewable electricity producers depends on the full diversity of the complete network.

Which is to say, for example, that a grid supplied by solar and wind will need proportionally less storage per megawatt as the geographical size of the grid increases. A larger grid "averages out" the intermittent sources better as it gets bigger.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by hueving on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @07:50PM (#17511160)
Not for solar. There are no grids nearly large enough to have half in the day time and half in the night time on average.
Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by sunstone on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @09:24PM (#17511546)
The type of renewable generator, ie solar, wind, hydroelectric, geothermal and tidal, or a combination thereof is another dimension of grid diversity.
Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by ehnto on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:18AM (#17512340)
You don't see it swamping thr competition for a bunch of reasons. You need capital in order to install solar, you also need to own your home and not be renting. A landlord has little incentive to install solar.

A state sized utility solar installation is non-trivial and that's why you don't yet see utilities providing solar themselves to the grid, and even if they did the price would be different.

So you don't see everyone using it because it's expensive to get started and because utility providers have yet to build solar plants capable of supplying a state. I don't think anyone has.

In time though, a combination of rooftop solar and utility scale battery/renewable systems to cover baseline load will probably be how we power the nation. Perhaps some gas or other generators will stick around to provide the baseline.

Re:Solar Just Hit a Record Low Price in the U.S by dd36 on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @04:27PM (#17510032)
It is swamping the current solution.