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Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by Retric on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @11:54AM (#17507874)
The San Franciso Fire Department is using wooden ladders due to an abundance of overhead power lines.

Which I think is the core issue, use other peoples tools unless you have some critical and unique requirement.

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by hinkley on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @01:39PM (#17508748)
I think the low yield strength of aluminum also plays a role here, as one guy mentions. But I’m surprised thermal conductivity didn’t rate a mention.

There was a time when aluminum bikes were new but before the parts likely to bend were replaceable where many a bike owner had to buy a new frame due to misadventure. You can only bend aluminum once, then you’re done. When they started making cogsets with more than six gears they went with axles about half a centimeter wider, and you had a similar conversation. You can have the longer axles but you can’t change your mind after. They have to bend the stays slightly and there is no going back after that (and let me tell you, the mechanic got really quiet when they did the bend. You want to get it just right and every bike and every frame size is different. You pull until you feel the metal just start to give and just after that is your 5mm)

Steel frames could often be rebent. But they’re heavier and they don’t like moisture. And their strength to weight ratio is only about the same as wood. Probably also bad options for firefighters.

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by sleepydog on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @02:04PM (#17508954)
There is actually a company that manufactures very high-performance bicycles out of hardwood:

https://renovobikes.com/pages/why-wood

They cost a pretty penny, such that I would be afraid of losing or damaging them.

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by sjg007 on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @03:06PM (#17509435)
Also bamboo bikes: https://booomers.com/
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by ghaff on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @03:47PM (#17509763)
The other property of aluminum that is relevant for some uses (but likely not ladders for most uses) is that, unlike steel, it doesn't have a well-defined fatigue limit. Therefore, it can eventually fail after a large number of even relatively small loads that don't visibly deform the material. That's one of the main service limits on airframes.
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by lsiebert on Thursday July 12, 2018 @09:26PM (#17519901)
Definitely true. Steel will stretch or bend if overloaded but aluminum is brittle enough that it will break once but without any warning of fatigue that may have occurred.

Now, in this case I wouldn't want to use steel, because it rusts and is heavier and neither are good for fire fighting.

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by NoGravitas on Thursday July 26, 2018 @12:39PM (#17618776)
There's a cyclist saying: steel bends, aluminium breaks, and carbon fibre shatters.
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by madengr on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @12:19PM (#17508085)
So I wonder why fiberglass ladders are not used?
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by noer on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @12:29PM (#17508181)
Heat deteriorates fiberglass
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by hinkley on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @01:50PM (#17508830)
Have they solved the UV problem at least? Even full sun used to eat fiberglass.
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by jononor on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @05:11PM (#17510316)
Yes, with coating. Millions of fiberglass boats out there going with less maintenance than their wooden predecessors.
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by mdorazio on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @07:18PM (#17510998)
Do you have any data to detail this? Fiberglass is glass fibers + resin. Decent resin doesn't melt or become weak with normal heat, it just thermally stresses at some point (we're talking > 180C at which point a wood ladder would be on fire). Wood also has issues with heat - it expands, which can cause buckling and cracks. I'm trying to find fiberglass temperature-strength data to figure out why it's not used in fire ladders and am coming up short.
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by mmagin on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @09:30PM (#17511573)
As far as I can tell after some brief googling when I saw this article earlier today: 1. Fiberglass ladders tend to use polyester resin. 2. polyesters tend to have a glass transition temperature (i.e. where the polymer starts to become soft and lose its shape) in the 75 to 125C range.

Wood combustion temperatures are typically about twice that. Also, incidental heat contact can char the surface of the wood and leave it mostly structurally intact.

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by namibj on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:35PM (#17516254)
The choice of resin can be accomodated, using polyamides as a matrix with suitable glass (some low-temperature types might not work), or with carbon fibers, should allow ~400°C/ 670K as a usage-limit. If it were to be coated with e.g. CVD SiO2 or something similar, it could have a pretty high reflectivity in the higher-temeperature thermal radiation range of light (where most of the radiation heat from a fire is in).

The mentioned charring is a very important property in buildings, as solid (hard-)wood pillars have astonishing endurance in a full-scale fire, due to them smoldering slowly from the outside in, compared to e.g. steel framing that quickly softens throughout. One additional factor is evaporative cooling/associated covering with mostly inert water vapor due to the water contained in the wood and the water released from the cellulose fibers upon thermal decompositon.

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by heartbreak on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @12:07PM (#17507984)
They could buy wooden ladders, so I don't think that paints the whole picture.
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by icegreentea2 on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @12:17PM (#17508062)
Article says they are one of two wooden manufacturers in California.
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by fhars on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @12:24PM (#17508132)
s/California/United States/;
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by Retric on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @12:18PM (#17508077)
> They could buy wooden ladders

Can you point me to someplace selling 50' wooden ladders appropriate for firefighting?

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by jdietrich on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @12:31PM (#17508194)
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by tlb on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @01:27PM (#17508638)
We have 3 of their library ladders at home. They're nicely made.
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by petee on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @03:56PM (#17509834)
San Francisco is listed as a client
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by mkhalil on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @12:33PM (#17508213)
For the right money, you can find the right ladder. It's not going to be cheap though, because you have to age the wood.

I wonder if there is a way to age the wood to SF humidity/climate faster than real time. Just feels like there has to be.

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by wahern on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @03:00PM (#17509380)
You can dry wood faster. Lots of woodworkers build little makeshift kilns by stickering the wood inside an enclosure with a fan and, optionally, using the sun or an electric heater. Temperature control, sticker spacing, and proper stacking is key so it takes lots of experience if you don't want to lose too much wood to warping, checking, etc.

And 13% moisture is relatively high. Kiln-dried hardwood for furniture is sold at about 8-10% moisture. Dried construction lumber is usually sold at about 19% moisture--just below the point which inhibits mold growth.[1] Heck, some of the construction-grade lumber at a big box store might already be at 13% just from sitting around for months inside the store. (Though they stack them poorly and this is one reason why the pieces are often so warped.)

I assume that they keep the pieces around for so long simply because they can. If your time horizon is decades, then you lose nothing by simply stacking the wood (without much stickering) and letting it sit. That doesn't take much effort, just patience. And considering how expensive and rare such long, defect-free pieces are, why risk losing pieces? I have no doubt they could dry the pieces faster, but they have better ways to spend their time. Their only immediate responsibility is to keep the years-long pipeline of wood filled.

[1] On the East Coast with a more humid climate, homebuilders purchase pre-dried lumber for framing. On the West Coast with a much dryer climate, builders traditionally buy wet wood for framing and the wood usually dries to <= 19% by the time they begin finishing the interior. (Wood primarily shrinks tangentially and radially, not longitudinally, so drying framing in place isn't usually an issue. See http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/dimensional-shrin...)

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by namibj on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:43PM (#17516340)
You can also stick them in a room-sized microwave oven operated at rather low frequencies, to get deeper penetration into the wood and dry it from within. If you do that with whole logs, you should be able to cut them to be straight in the dry state.

This takes in the order of days, not years, without damaging the structural integrity by chemical decomposition that starts at relatively low temperatures.

If you are in a hurry, you can also put something like burnt lime in the chamber as that chemically captures the evaporating water without releasing it in these conditions. That way you can keep the humidity under 5% during the process if you spread the lime enough to capture the water as fast as it is driven out of the wood. You need to be careful to not burn the wood, but you should be able to use something from FLIR with some computer vision to check that no lumber overheats. The water also increases the absorption a lot, so this provides feedback that equalizes the humidity, instead of e.g. a runaway heating that would happen if dryer wood absorbs more microwaves.

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by gascan on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @01:18PM (#17508579)
Hell, for the right money your in house staff might make the right ladder for you! ... wait.
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by toomanybeersies on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @12:59PM (#17508418)
You can use a kiln, which is how most timber is dried these days.

If you're feeling bored, the Wikipedia article on wood drying is very comprehensive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_drying

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by exDM69 on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @01:28PM (#17508655)
Kiln drying doesn't produce ready to use lumber for fine woodworking or demanding applications. It's fine for construction material but needs additional seasoning and acclimatization in the environment it's going to be used in if it's to be used for anything else.

Fast drying will also introduce stress and warping to the wood. It would not work when long straight and thick material is needed.

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by garmaine on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @12:49PM (#17508340)
Pressure? But it’s going to be mighty expensive to build a pressure chamber that big.
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by jaggederest on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @04:49PM (#17510167)
Negative pressure might be more useful. Boil out the water under half an atmosphere, and replace the atmosphere with dried nitrogen and a chunk of desiccant.

You'll probably damage the wood if you do that though. Now I want to try it in my vacuum chamber, but I'm not sure it'll hold vacuum for weeks/months at a time.

Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by namibj on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:17PM (#17516677)
Just use a pipe with conductive plating on the inside and operate it in the 3-digit MHz range as a waveguide. Make sure that the core of the wood has more power than the outside, and that you e.g. move it around lengthwise if you get longitudal resonance in the pipe. Add some desiccant, and make sure the way you couple the energy into the chamber can handle this resonance without frying itself through reflection. Might not need the vacuum, but it should be easy to construct it in a way that it can hold a vacuum of around 10~200 mBar, e.g. with a simple one-stage pump. If you make sure the pump doesn't take in much moisture, there shouldn't be an issue for it.
Re:The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden lad... by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday July 11, 2018 @01:50PM (#17508835)
What pressure do they need, a length of pipe might do?