Not to mention the median for a developer in the Bay Area is around $125-130k [1] [2]. Those $200k+ salaries often quoted here on HN are top outlier employees at top outlier companies, not rank-and-file mid-level engineers at average no-name companies.

1: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en...

2: https://www1.salary.com/CA/San-Francisco/Software-Engineer-I...

It doesn't require an undergrad. I was in the US Army as a UAV pilot for 4 years, got out and got a job as a Unix Admin. I'm now a successful software engineer. Also, $240k is not obscenely high. Top end google engineers make more and that's about normal starting comp for a very talented engineer in certain segments of finance.

It doesn't strictly require an undergrad, no, but it helps to have one.

And $240k is very high for a non-management job, and compared to the median income and the minimum wage for the USA is obscenely high. Median household income is ~$60k, and median personal income is ~$30k. Minimum wage in the USA is around $15k.

In my books, 8 times the median income, or 16 times the minimum wage, is obscenely high. That kind of income disparity is not good for society.

My point was that it is not high in the world of software development. There are ranges much higher than the GP's stated $240k. I work in an industry where that is the case (finance).

In one sense it's clearly not obscenely high - it's the median salary after all - _half_ of Facebook's employees make more than that.

But from the perspective of someone struggling to make minimum wage, I'll be it 100% is obscene...

Would be surprised if the average IBM developer salary is around 50k. My guess would be higher, proabably around 90k - 100k for US employees.

And the $50k IBMer in upstate New York lives about as well as the $240k Facebook employee in Menlo Park.

This keeps being brought up but I'm sorry, no. The IBMer maybe has a larger house that they own rather than rent. In basically every other respect, the $240k-earning employee comes out ahead. The latter earns more, can save _way_ more, lives in an area with better weather, and can afford to retire far earlier.

Exactly, they can put much more into a 401k and then move somewhere cheap to retire and have a much higher standard of living than the $50k guy would.

That's a sad statement about the cost of living near SF.

You can't make this shit up: the median home price in Ithica is $242k [0]. In Menlo Park, it's $2.42m [1]. A nice, even 10x.

[0] https://www.zillow.com/ithaca-ny/home-values/

[1] https://www.zillow.com/menlo-park-ca/home-values/

Wow, that makes my 160K 1500 sq ft house in the upper midwest (with easy access to 6-figure jobs) seem absolutely cheap by comparison. Only problem is property taxes are high (4K - 8K in this area). Oh, and typical corrupt Illinois politics.

Illinois is bankrupt, get out now.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/letters/ct-illino...

So is California.

He doesn't save as much, though. The FBer could save the IBMer's gross income every year.

What good does that do him? One typically saves for:

- Income replacement in an emergency

- Income replacement in retirement

- A down payment on a home

- A home improvement project

- A child’s college expenses less need-based financial aid

All of these are inflated by living in a high-cost high-wage situation such that the larger balance has you merely keeping up in terms of the capabilities your savings buys you.

The extra savings only make a difference if you move somewhere cheap before you draw them down. That’s a great argument for doing a few years in SV in your twenties but less relevant for senior talent.

Having a higher income and higher gross savings allows you to invest more in:

1. Rental properties

2. Securities - stocks, bonds, derivatives, REITs etc.

3. Investment opportunities not available to others. The $250k-earning employee (sorry, yeah I bumped it up $10k to make this argument) is an accredited investor.

All of the above have compounding benefits over the years. Investing $25k today is better than investing $5k, even if both are 10% of gross income of our example employees. $25k savings allows you to put a down payment on a $125k rental property in a low-cost area every year.

> All of these are inflated by living in a high-cost high-wage situation

The "high-cost" only applies if you insist on living the exact same lifestyle as you would in a low-cost area: large house, boat, large vehicles etc. It's just common sense to limit your spending on overpriced things. In the Bay Area, housing is overpriced.

It’s just common sense to compare like with like. The appropriate comparison to a shared apartment with a long public transit commute in SF is the same lifestyle in another city. Which may not provide as much investment income, but is so incredibly cheap you could achieve FIRE or be an artist or whatever.

> It’s just common sense to compare like with like.

I guess we should agree to disagree :-). I think you should adapt your lifestyle to the area you live in. Here's an analogy: let's say I love fresh sushi. If I live near the coast and a healthy fishing industry, it'll be good and cheap. If I live in Las Vegas, it can still be had but it'll cost me. Do I keep up my expensive sushi habit in Vegas and complain about the cost-of-living? Or do I just eat less of it and accept that there are benefits to being in Vegas that outweigh the more expensive sushi?

Besides that, no $250k-earning employee is living in a shared apartment with a commute to make ends meet in SF. If they live that way, it's to maximize their savings.

Vegas provides plenty of dining and entertainment options to make up for lost sushi. It’s not worse, just different. The anolgoue in SF lifestyles would be a high-rise condo instead of a house, proximity to transit instead of a nice car, etc. The frugal options in SF are not just different, but straight-up worse.

When a majority of that $250k is in Monopoly money (i.e. most of the time), they absolutely are.

My family of four live on that FBer's income in a nice single family rental and still save over half that IBMer's gross income. I can mortgage a multi-family dwelling in the Midwest every 4-5 years or so, invest in stocks/index funds, and generally do a lot more than the IBMer will ever be able to.